Orchard People

[00:00:00] Introduction and Overview
Susan: Hey everybody, it's Susan Poizner from Orchard people.com, and boy do I have a treat for you today. In the next two episodes of the Orchard People Podcast, I'm gonna take you with me to the United Kingdom and, together, we will search for fruit tree wisdom and inspiration. Today we're gonna visit the Frank P Matthews Nursery. It is a family-run business that's been growing fruit trees since 1901. So let's start with my interview with Steph Dunn James, whose great grandfather started this business so many years ago.
[00:00:34] Interview with Steph Dunn James
Steph: I'm Steph Dunn James, and I'm the fourth generation of our family tree nursery called Frank P Matthews. So it started in 1901, so Mr. Frank Matthews, my great-grandfather, started the nursery and it passed down through the maternal side so it's changed surname from my grandfather and then my father, Nick Dunn, and now me.
Susan: How do you think the choice of fruit trees to feature and to sell would've changed over all those years?
Steph: That's very interesting. So we definitely have a wider range of fruit trees now than ever before. We combine heritage varieties. So we still grow a lot of varieties from hundreds of years ago, right through to modern breeding. So varieties that we release, we breed ourselves or we get from other companies that breed and then we release, so varieties for the future. And we also have a large trial area. So we are doing lots of breeding ourselves, looking for varieties that might be successful for climate change, or better pest and disease, or more interesting flavors. Yeah, our range has got bigger as we've grown over the years.
[00:01:45] Tour of the Nursery
Susan: Now let's hop in the car with Steph to see where the Frank P Matthews trees are actually grown.
Steph: So our nursery's 500 acres, and it's split between valley and upper level. So we grow all the trees in the soil in the valley 'cause the alluvial soil's very good there, but not all of the 500 acres that is down to tree production at any one time.
We do have times where we rest the soil, in between, to make sure it recovers and put nutrients back in.
Susan: We drove around the amazing orchard and we hopped out of the car to see some of the new varieties that Frank P Matthews are developing. Okay, let's go have a look. Okay. So you were saying that this kind of sunny weather is good for coloring up the fruit.
Steph: Absolutely. So the cold nights really help develop the sugar.
Most people think it's the sun. It is the sun as well, but cold nights are so key to coloring, making these really gorgeous red apples.
[00:02:49] Mother Trees and Propagation
Susan: Now these trees, you said, are the mother trees.
Steph: Yes.
Susan: So what does that mean? How are you gonna be caring for these trees and in order to get the young year old sprouts for grafting and propagation?
Steph: So apple trees are all on this nursery grown by vegetative production, so they're by budding and grafting. So we have to keep a stock of the mother material here. And what we do is we plant these on semi vigorous rootstock. So the trees, if left to themselves, they'd be three meters tall by now. And we hard prune them every year so we give them a really hard prune, cut back all of this one year wood, and that stimulates the tree to produce vegetative growth. So what we need for good propagation material is one year wood, about this long, pencil thickness is ideal, and something nice, healthy, and vigorous. And we can use that.
If we didn't prune it, we wouldn't get such vigorous growth and it wouldn't be quite acceptable for us to be using.
Susan: So actually the apples are a bonus.
Steph: Yes.
Susan: But you really don't care.
Steph: Yeah.
Susan: A lot of the pruning that I do and that I teach, I want to encourage people to get the fruit.
Steph: Yeah.
Susan: But you have to choose. Does the energy go into the fruit or does it go into the fruiting? Into the branches?
Steph: That's it. Yeah.
Susan: And so each branch could turn into how many grafted trees?
Steph: Okay. If we are budding, we don't use the end is a little bit too soft and down here is a bit too hard.
So really we use the middle section here so we can get sort of 20 trees outta just that one branch.
Susan: Wow.
Steph: Yeah.
Susan: 20 trees out of one branch.
Steph: Yeah.
Susan: Oh my goodness. So the more branches you get, the more money you make, basically?
Steph: Pretty much, yeah.
Susan: The more trees you can sell. Okay.
[00:04:37] New Varieties and Breeding
Susan: And do we know what this particular beautiful variety is?
Steph: I can tell you this one is probably going to be a very catchy name. 1 1 6 0 8.
Susan: 1 1 6 0 8. So are you guys developing this particular tree?
Steph: Yeah, so this one is a new variety. So everything's under code and we plant them, we assess them, we look at the varieties over what can be up to about 10 years.
Susan: Oh wow.
Steph: Because we wanna make sure that it crops regularly, that it doesn't have any pest and disease, and how it performs in the different seasons, whether it's actually as good as we think one year as it is the next year. So this could be that one of the varieties of the future, but it is unnamed currently.
Susan: 1 1 6 0 8 is here. Now, this next one has incredible skin color. This is a beautiful apple. Is this also 1 1 6 0 8 or is it a friend?
Steph: It's a friend, but it's also a number. Okay. But it is a different variety. So this one, I quite think it's quite nice. It's got this sort of blush on.
Susan: Yeah.
Steph: Or bloom. It's like a bloom.
I actually dunno if there's a technical term for that, but it's got a sort of lovely pink, purple color. That's actually a really good one. This is one of our favorites. It could end up being released in the future.
Susan: Can I name it?
Steph: Yeah, sure. Susan.
Susan: We'll call it the Susan Apple. I love it. I really love it.
Okay, so we've got two in development. The other thing I'm noticing is zero pest and disease, but is that because it's naturally pest and disease resistant, or do you guys treat it in certain ways?
Steph: We do spray our mother tree orchard because we are using most of this material for propagation. We have to make sure that it is really clean and healthy.
Susan: Yeah.
Steph: We don't spray a lot. It's a very basic program. So we still see if a variety that we're trialing is susceptible to disease. We will still see it, and in which case, then we would rule it out of the breeding.
Susan: Yes.
Steph: But yeah, we do spray. We really need it to be nice and healthy.
Susan: Lovely. Oh my gosh.
Steph: And we've got some Russets over there. Let's go look at those. So this is a variety that's been released. This is called Herefordshire Russet.
Susan: Okay.
Steph: So Russet's still quite popular for people to buy. Flavor is very important and very key in Russet. They're not the most popular variety from a supermarket point of view, but quite popular from a sort of pick your own and homegrown point of view.
But they're absolutely beautiful. I don't know if you want to try one.
Susan: I would love to.
Steph: It might be a little bit premature, this variety, but we'll see.
Susan: Yeah, let's see what it tastes like. Yeah.
This is lovely. Golden Russet is one of my favorites.
Steph: Ah, okay. Yeah.
Susan: And this has that similar sweetness.
Steph: There's nothing quite like a Russet flavor, I think.
Susan: Oh yeah. Very good. I understand that the skin of Russet is a little bit pest resistant. Maybe they can't get in as much.
Steph: True. Yeah.
Susan: Wonderful. So again, all of these are your mother trees.
Steph: Yeah.
Susan: And so here is where you're gonna get all your propagation material. Let's see what else you've got in this row.
Steph: Okay.
[00:07:57] Exploring Crabapples
Susan: Oh, wow.
So crabapples as well.
Steph: Yeah. So crabapples. So when we are breeding and you cross apples, you do sometimes get crabapples in the breeding.
Crabapple's certainly is one of my father's passions. He loves Malus, he loves crabapples. So from a flower and fruit point of view, they can be really diverse. White flowers, dark pink, double flowers, single flowers, and then the crabs. Obviously we can use them for jellies and jams. I love to think that they're great natural bird feeders.
So people spend lots and lots of money on buying seeds and feed for the birds, whereas trees can produce it themselves, which is fantastic. But great for nature, pollinators, birds, and they're really good value garden plants as well, crabapples.
They're not too big, become lots of different shapes and sizes and colors, and generally pretty, I say bombproof, really. Certainly from a climate change point of view. Very good In extremes. Wet and dry. So definitely for the future, planting crabapples.
Susan: Interesting. So all crabapples are rugged in that way?
Steph: Yeah.
Susan: And this particular crabapple, are they okay off the tree?
Steph: Do you want to try?
Susan: Oh my gosh. Yes! This is gonna be a pucker moment.
Steph: Sometimes they can be, yeah.
Susan: Yeah. Let's see if this one's right. Okay, let's check it out.
Steph: You get some very sweet, sweet crabapples sometimes.
I'm not sure if these one will be.
Susan: Not too bad. Not bad at all.
Steph: That's pretty good actually.
Susan: And I'm guessing this is a number.
Steph: It is a number.
Susan: Okay.
Steph: So you see, it's quite naturally dwarf. Spreading rather than upright.
Susan: Yes.
Steph: So this is the things that we would assess for from a crabapple point of view, is different shapes and sizes. Maybe it's weeping, upright, columnar.
Susan: And blossoms, like what color the blossoms are? Is there much variety as well?
Steph: Yeah, for sure. This is white, but you can get from bright dark purples, and even purple leaves as well. So it's quite a diverse.
Susan: Now, my eye is drawn, again, to the dark reds. I totally love dark red apples, like the Spartan types. Let's go look at that one.
Steph: Okay.
Susan: Num. Num.
Steph: That's nice actually.
Susan: I like it. I would plant that. Oh, gorgeous. Look at this. Look at this color.
Steph: So this is a trial variety.
Susan: Oh my gosh. Look at the color. This is beautiful.
Steph: It's quite sour, but it's amazing to look at.
Susan: But it looks juicy. Might be sour, but it's juicy. Yeah. So people are really interested in red flesh. Can I grab one?
Steph: Go for it. Yeah.
Susan: See what the taste is like.
Steph: So they, they originate from niedzwetzkyana, the apple.
Susan: Oh.
Steph: Which is from Kazakhstan, one of the originals. So a lot of the red flesh gene comes from, very close to crabs. So hence most of them, in breeding up until now, have been quite sour.
But modern breeding is introducing sweeter notes into these red flesh varieties. And they're supposed to be higher in anthocyanin, so perhaps better for us, like berries, higher in those red compounds.
Susan: Nice. Okay, we're gonna try this one.
Steph: Okay. Little bit more sour.
Susan: Yeah. More sour. Pretty color though. Yeah, almost plum like. Thick skin. Yeah. It's an interesting combination.
Steph: Yeah.
Susan: Give me a choice. I'm gonna go for this any day, but this is gorgeous.
Steph: Yeah.
Susan: So it might not be finished, the breeding process. You might take some seeds from this and keep developing it until you get just the right flavor.
Steph: Which we do. Yeah.
Susan: Yeah. Oh, super.
The soil here. When you look at the soil, it is red.
Steph: Yeah.
Susan: And looks really rich. Tell me about the soil in this region.
Steph: Yeah, so we are on a red marl, sandstone sort type soil. So it's quite clay, like a clay loam. Originally, Frank Matthews, when he started his nursery, he was actually located near Heathrow.
Susan: Oh.
Steph: And obviously we are quite some way from Heathrow now. So after the war, they decided to build the M4, which is a motorway there, and extend the runway. So we were compulsory purchased and we were given time to find somewhere else.
So my grandfather, at the time, looked round the whole of the UK, settled on Herefordshire, worcestershire. We're in Worcestershire here, like the sauce. And decided to move here purely because of the soil and the river, 'cause we've got the river running through our nursery as well, the River Team, and so that allows us some lovely alluvial soils in the valley.
It's quite heavy, but it is very high in nutrients, and that helps grow great fruit trees.
[00:13:17] Historic Collections and Creativity
Susan: Next we went to see the historic collections at the Frank P Matthews site. Earlier, Steph told me about the Marcher Apple Network and other regional organizations that protect heritage fruit varieties.
So Frank P Matthews helps out by keeping many of these varieties in its own collection. So while these fruits and these fruit trees aren't available in their catalog, they will graft the tree, if requested. And they may also include the fruit at tasting sessions in local fairs.
Steph: We talked about the Marcher Apple Network and some various collections that we have.
This is the way that we store them here on the nursery. So we plant them as cordons, so very close together at 45 degrees. This is a really efficient way of growing lots of different varieties. We do cast this as a train tree because of the pruning that's involved. With these, we don't need a lot of budwood, but we are preserving the varieties for the fruit and for just in case if we need to propagate from them.
So it does still produce some really nice growth for us for propagation, but also we can get the apples that just enough that we need and fit a lot into a small area.
Susan: Beautiful. Yeah, it's so lovely. And how old would these trees be?
Steph: Oh gosh, these are about five years old, I think. And we are setting up more and more cross the way.
We've got about 800 in this patch here, and that's a mixture of the Marcher Apple Network collection, our own collection, because we do displays this time of year for places like the Malvern Autumn Show, where we put on display of 300 different varieties on the table for the general public to see.
They love it 'cause everyone comes up and says, oh, I didn't realize there was this many apples. And we say, there's actually many more. But most people are just used to the sort of five or six you're able to buy at the supermarket and don't realize the huge genetic pool that there is out there.
So it's quite interesting for people.
Susan: So each of these will be a different historic heirloom cultivar?
Steph: Yes.
Susan: With a name that has been around for a hundred years or more, let's say.
Steph: Some of them, yes. In one part we've got the historic varieties. We've also got some interesting varieties from all over the world here.
So some Canadian varieties. I'm not sure exactly which varieties off the top of my head, but some modern ones, some old ones, some 300 year varieties, and everything in between.
Susan: Fabulous.
[00:15:55] Espalier Trees and Maintenance
Susan: One thing that stood out to me during this journey was the extent to which this nursery leans into creativity.
There are decorative espalier trees everywhere, even in the parking lot. These are two dimensional plantings. They're actually living fruiting walls, and they can be shaped like fans or oblique cordons, like we saw earlier. And there's lots of other playful patterns that these fruit trees can be trained into.
So espalier is the art of training branches flat against a wall or a wire frame. It's beautiful, but it also can be good for small gardens if you don't have space for a full size tree. So next, Steph showed me one seven year old espalier. It was a really big tree. It's gorgeous. It's heavy with fruit. And they are going to dig it up and sell it.
They will sell this huge tree at their store for about 800 pound sterling. That's roughly 1,000 US dollars. Or, if they take it to sell at next year's Chelsea Flower Show in London, they'll be able to sell that tree for three times as much.
This whole area, I see, is train trees.
Steph: Yes.
Susan: Like espalier. And tell me a little bit about this tree.
When was it planted and what's going on with all the loopy kind of branches? Tell me.
Steph: Okay, so this is a basic espalier with a few fun things thrown in. It's about seven years old. We generally say, for when you're creating an espalier, not to do more than one tier a year.
So when we first plant it, it's only got one or two that's already been done in a pot, and we do the rest in situ, summer and winter pruning, as you know. What we've done here is created an espalier, which is a tiered tree, and put some fun little flower crowns or doodles in where we're just having a little bit of fun, showing people that it doesn't have to be really rigid shapes.
You can be more flexible and do what you want with apples, really. They're great subjects to train.
Susan: Are you actually gonna dig this out and sell it?
Steph: Yeah, so once the fruit's finished and the leaves come off, it's dormant, then we will dig it up. It's planted in a grow bag inside. So we will dig up that grow bag.
So the majority of the roots, close to the tree, are not disturbed. And we'll put it into a pot.
Susan: When you dig this out, you're gonna put it in your store. How much would somebody pay for an apple tree that's been espaliered at this age?
Steph: So from us here in Worcestershire, 'cause we are quite rural, we'd sell this for about 800 pounds.
If we were going to somewhere like the Chelsea Flower Show or selling this in London, it could be up to three times that. Yeah, so it's taken seven years to get to where it is, so.
Susan: Oh yes, it's worth it.
Steph: Yeah, hopefully.
Susan: Hopefully. But also, do people who buy it, do they realize they then have to care for it to maintain the shape?
Steph: We always inform people as much as possible to say, it won't stay like this forever. Some summer pruning is very important to train trees, as is winter pruning. Twice a year pruning. It doesn't have to be complicated. We've got some very basic tutorials that we can talk people how to do it.
But yeah, it's really important to stay on top of the pruning.
Susan: A quick tip about espalier apple trees, you can buy them ready to go. You can plant them in your yard. But they need maintenance and they need a lot of pruning. It's something that you putter with and do a lot of. So if you're not a hands-on person, then espalier apple trees may not be for you.
And even freestanding fruit trees, ordinary three-dimensional fruit trees planted in the ground, even they need pruning every single year. Winter and summer pruning sometimes, or sometimes just winter, and sometimes just summer pruning. If you're new to pruning, I have a book on the topic and you can find it on Amazon.
It's called Fruit Tree Pruning, the Science and Art of Cultivating Healthy Fruit Trees. So now let's wrap up my interview with Steph. I had so much fun looking at this orchard. It was beautiful.
[00:20:15] Ensuring Customer Success
Susan: But I guess the main question that I have is they put so much work into growing incredibly healthy and beautiful fruit trees for the public, and they sell them across the United Kingdom.
How can they guarantee that once people get these trees and plant them in the garden? That they're successful in growing them into large, healthy, and productive trees? Because often the problem is, you get a fruit tree, you plant it in your yard, and whoops, all of a sudden there's pest and disease problems, or it's not growing well.
So my question was how do nurseries like Frank P Matthews help their customers grow strong, productive, and long-lived fruit trees? How do you ensure customer success? People may buy your trees. A perfectly beautifully healthy tree planted in their garden, maybe neglect it. How do you ensure that people are successful with their trees?
Steph: We can't. We can't ensure 100%, and that's very sad. But what we can do is try and educate people as much as possible, so through articles on our website or videos or social media into the best practices. And hope that when people spend money on a tree, it's a bit more of an invested purchase. They're not the cheapest thing in the garden center, so the people are spending a decent amount of money.
We're trying to inform 'em as much as possible, so how to take care of them, to water them, that sounds very basic, but to water them, to plant them appropriately, to make sure that there's no weeds or too much grass competition around them in the first 12 months because that can be really detrimental to the tree's growth.
To do some pruning. Pruning doesn't have to be too complicated. So to take those myths away and make people not afraid to do a bit of pruning for apples, for example. Yeah. And hope that they care about the tree as well, and that means that they'll hopefully look after it a bit more.
Susan: It's funny because this is a business that you got through your family, but it feels like you're passionate about it. It's not just something that you inherited with the family culture. What is it that you love about what you do?
Steph: Oh gosh, so many things. I guess it is a real privilege to be able to carry the business forward.
Some might say it's in my blood. I've grown up with it, so I have a sort of natural affinity with it. I genuinely love trees, not just apple trees, but ornamentals and crabapples and seeing them transition through the seasons.
We all know planting trees are amazing for the world, but I think they can also be very evocative for people. We get people planting memorial trees for people and some people will have ideas of my the favorite tree in granny's garden. They can hold memories and so they're very special plants. So it's a privilege, really.
Susan: It's an honor to do that work.
Steph: Yeah.
Susan: That's so wonderful. Thank you so much for chatting with me today.
Steph: You're welcome.
[00:23:23] Conclusion and Future Episodes
Susan: I hope you enjoyed this visit to Frank P Matthews as much as I did, and I hope you could also attune to Steph's passion about fruit trees and about this business that has lasted over a century, and I hope it will last for many more years to come.
Now, if you loved this episode, please do click on Like and Subscribe. Definitely follow the show if you want more fruit tree care content and you don't wanna miss future episodes. You can also explore my own fruit tree care books. They are on Amazon. I have Fruit Tree Pruning: The Science and Art of Cultivating Healthy Fruit Trees and Grow Fruit Trees Fast: A Beginner's Guide to a Healthy Harvest in Record Time. I have other books as well.
So now remember, you can watch the full video of this visit with all those orchard visuals on our YouTube channel. And if you know anyone else who might be inspired by this podcast and this video, please do share this episode.
If you want more fruit tree care content and more fruit tree care podcasts like this one, all you have to do is go to orchard people.com/podcast and you'll see I have over a hundred classic episodes where I explore every aspect of fruit trees and fruit tree care.
So next month in the show, we are going to stay in the United Kingdom.
We are going to explore an unforgettable hotel orchard at the Newt in Somerset. We're gonna visit a regenerative farm style orchard. We're gonna see a spectacular botanical garden fruit collection.
And a highlight. You are gonna see one of the most vibrant community orchards that I have ever visited. I can't wait to share it all with you.
I'll see you next month.