Orchard People

#127 Classic Episode: Grow Fruit Trees Fast with John Cline
Susan: Hey everybody, it's Susan Poizner here, and welcome to the Orchard People Podcast. Today I'm running a special classic episode, and this really is a special one. My interview with John Cline was one that I did right before I wrote my book
Grow Fruit Trees Fast, and I really wanted to confirm that all the theories that I had about how to grow fruit trees quickly and successfully were actually based on science,
and this is a packed episode. You will learn so much. You're gonna learn why some fruit trees grow really quickly while others grow really slowly.
You'll learn how vigor and precocity are two different things and how that affects when your fruit tree will first produce fruit. You're gonna learn about rootstocks and why they matter. And you'll also learn about how different pruning and training choices will affect the quality of your fruit on your tree.
with no further ado, let's dive into the episode.
[00:01:02] Introduction: The Waiting vs. Hustling Debate
Susan: They say that good things come to those who wait, and that can be true. For instance, if you plant a fruit tree today, you may have to wait four years before you can enjoy the harvest, and that takes patience.
But, if we do some research and give our trees lots of correct hands-on care, we can enjoy fruit trees that will mature faster, and that will be more productive. And that's what we're going to talk about today.
[00:01:35] Guest Introduction: John Cline
Susan: My guest on the show is John Cline. He's a professor in the Department of Plant Agriculture at the University of Guelph in Ontario. And John's focus is on fruit tree physiology, and his goal is to identify the factors that affect fruit quality and yield.
[00:01:57] Understanding Fruit Tree Growth
Susan: Okay, so now for today's conversation, John Cline, welcome to the show today.
John: Thank you very much. It's a pleasure to join you.
Susan: I'm so glad you're here. So tell me a little bit about the work you do. Are you primarily doing work to help commercial growers, and if so, how?
John: Yes. I work at the University of Guelph, and I'm primarily located at the Simcoe Research Station, which is about an hour actually from campus. And my purpose is to really educate orchardists, those that grow fruit trees commercially, and to help them improve fruit quality, yield, and orchard management practices.
Susan: What role does the choice of cultivars or trees, how important is the choice of trees that the grower makes in terms of getting a tree to grow faster and be more productive?
John: The choice of tree can play a big role in affecting how soon you get fruit as well as how much fruit that can be achieved. So we have differences in species. For example, in Southern Ontario where I'm communicating from today, we have a temperate climate. It's on the northern limit of production, but we can grow peaches in the Niagara Peninsula of Ontario. Sweet cherries, tart cherries, and in other parts of Ontario, we can grow pears and apples and plums.
And each species has different genetics that affect how quickly the tree grows and how much fruit that can be produced.
Susan: Essentially what I see in my orchard, and I don't know if this is very common, that the cherry trees grow like crazy. They grow really quickly.
But some of the apple trees, oh my gosh, you could wait forever to get a harvest from those trees. Is that a generalization or is it actually accurate?
John: It's a good generalization. Cherries grow more than apples, in general, in a given season, as well as peaches. Peaches are very rapidly growing.
When you look at the actual amount of growth in a single year on a peach tree, it can be about a meter long in shoot growth compared to an apple might be half a meter. The genetics of the species play a big role, but also there's a lot of other factors that can affect the growth of each species.
For example, the climate or the soil can have a huge impact.
Susan: Also in terms of varieties, one thing that I've heard, and I don't know if it's true, that Honeycrisp apples, which are notoriously finicky and hard to grow, that they are incredibly slow. I've read online that Honeycrisp apples can take seven years to produce their first harvest.
Is that true?
John: In terms of apples, we group them into weak or vigorous or moderate vigorous varieties. The genetics of the cultivar play a big role in how quickly they grow. But there's something else that we refer to as precocity, and that how that is how quickly the tree begins to bear fruit.
And actually Honeycrisp are very weak growers, but they're extremely precocious. So they'll start to flower the second year after planting and begin to produce fruit if you let them. Sometimes that's not a good plan though, 'cause it can result in the tree growing slowly and then becoming runted over time, or small.
Susan: So you introduced two interesting terms that I've seen a lot of, and sometimes when you go to a fruit tree nursery, they will talk about vigor and they will talk about precocity, or precociousness, I don't know what's the right way to say it. What's the difference between the two?
John: When you think of any flowering plant, there's vegetative growth, that is the leaf and the shoot growth. And there's the reproductive growth, that is the fruit that are coming from the flowers. So tree vigor refers to the vegetative growth. How much the tree shoots grow leaf growth, et cetera.
Precociousness or precocity relates to the flowering and amount of fruit that grows, and in particular, how quickly it's produced after the tree is planted.
So obviously for a commercial grower, they wanna get fruit fairly quickly so they can pay off the huge investment in establishing the orchard and having income coming back. So they don't really wanna wait too long. So for apples, that's probably year three after planting that they wanna see fruit coming back to start to generate revenue.
Susan: So for us, for home growers as well, or for small scale growers, you can research and learn a lot about rootstock and the role that the rootstock plays in how big your tree is gonna get, but also how quickly it's gonna grow, how resistant it is to disease. Can you talk to me a little bit about rootstock and what role that plays in this equation?
John: Maybe I should, first of all, explain what a rootstock is for those that might not know. When you buy a modern tree from the nursery, you're usually buying a tree that has two parts to it.
One is the variety, the apple or fruit that you want. So for example, in Ontario, some of the popular apple varieties are Honeycrisp, Empire, McIntosh, Golden Delicious, et cetera. So that is the top part of the tree, but there's actually a different root system and it's genetically different. And that's called the rootstock. And the rootstock is used for a number of reasons, but primarily to dwarf the tree or make the tree smaller.
It also does a number of other things that can benefit the grower, but that's the primary function of the rootstock. To provide size control, or control the vigor.
[00:09:05] Listener Questions and Expert Answers
Susan: I've got a few interesting comments. I wanna read them to you, John. This one is from Lisa in New Hampshire. She writes, my Redhaven peach produced the fastest and most fruit. I have several varieties of peaches, pears, and apples. So that's interesting. So she's growing lots of different things on one site, but the Redhaven beats everything.
Does that say anything to you or is that an accident?
John: We don't have a lot of size controlling rootstocks for the peaches, so generally, they grow a lot more than apples where we have a huge range of rootstocks that provide size control. So I would certainly concur with your listener there from New Hampshire, where Redhaven grows very quickly and vigorously.
Susan: What you're saying is these size control rootstocks, because they're designed to make your tree smaller, they may also be designed to get your tree to grow a little slower.
So maybe the smaller the tree, the less growth you get. The less growth, the less vigorous. Could that be?
John: Yeah, that's the primary function is to offer size control, and more important, it's also to offer disease resistance. And in our climate, cold hardiness, where we're at the dormant limit. So we wanna make sure the tree can survive the cold winters that we experience here in Southern Ontario.
Susan: Okay, this is from Eric. Good afternoon, Eric from Hamilton, New Jersey here.
For apples, we bend the branches down slightly below horizontal, and for pear, we bend the branches down to horizontal. This supposedly triggers the hormones of the tree to produce fruit rather than produce wood. This is quite contrary to the crotch angles that are taught in the US.
Wow. Eric, thank you. What a great question. John, what do you say? Can you explain what his question is?
[00:11:17] Advanced Techniques in Fruit Tree Cultivation
John: We call this training of the tree, tree training in modern orchards. Its branch bending is a technique to promote flowering, and therefore, fruiting. When the tree, or the shoot, is growing vertical, it has a tendency to be vegetative. In other words, grow leaves and compete with the main leader of the tree.
If we wanna switch it into growing fruit, we can do that by bending it. And you bend it and tie it down with various techniques. So you can use weights or string, spreaders. There's various ways. There's no right or wrong way.
And what that does is it changes the apical dominance of the tree. If you think of a tree, the very tip of the tree, or the main leader, is dominant over other parts of the tree, and that's through a physiological process called apical dominance. There's a hormone produced at the apex of the tree that's inhibiting the growth of the shoots down below.
So the tree grows up tall and in a Christmas tree shape. So branch bending is a great technique to encourage the tree into fruiting earlier.
Susan: So essentially by weighing these branches down, stopping them from growing upwards, we are actually switching our tree into a different mode.
We're telling the tree, okay, it's time to produce fruit. Don't mess around with too many leaves. We want some fruit as well. What a great question. Thank you, Eric.
Next, we've got one from Carolyn. Hello, my name is Carolyn and I reside in Edmonton, Alberta.
Could you please ask your guest to comment on this? I have noticed apple trees in my neighborhood hosting more than one variety of apple at the same time, likely from the owners grafting a new variety onto an established tree. Can you comment if this is a recommended practice? How many varieties can be grafted at the same time?
John: A lot of the retail nurseries will sell trees that have multiple varieties grafted onto them, and this is done in the nursery using grafting techniques that they graft the variety into existing branches.
And there's really no limit to the number of cultivars that can be grafted in. Probably it's only limited by the number of side branches that you can graft into. It's not very practical to do it commercially, but it's certainly great for the home gardener to experience these different fruits that might mature at different times, and it's certainly a great conversation piece.
Susan: In a previous show, we featured a person who has created the tree of 40 fruits. So this is a tree that he reproduces across North America where not only are there different cultivars of one type of fruit, so like a bunch of different types of apples on one tree, he's got, on one tree, various different types of stone fruits. So you may have apricots and peaches and plums all on the same tree.
John: Yeah.
Susan: So that was an interesting conversation also on this show. Now here, we've got a question from Greg. Greg is from Bloomfield Finger Lakes, New York. So Greg says, I may send a question after I listen for a bit, but just reading the description and wondering about pruning, specifically aggressive pruning, and if it helps with fruit bearing time. The amount and what kind of cuts would you recommend to get more fruit faster?
So that's Greg's question about pruning and how that can affect vigor and precocity.
John: Good question, Greg. Generally anytime you prune a tree, it's going to reduce the size of the tree and it will delay fruiting. So it's not really a technique to speed up fruiting at all. Sometimes the trees get too vigorous and, as a rule of thumb, we generally do heavy pruning when it's dormant, like this time of year in the Northern Hemisphere, and we'll cut probably no more than a third of the tree at one time, and then we would do more the next dormant period.
And, generally, it's better to make larger cuts than a lot of small cuts if you're trying to thin out the tree because anytime you make a cut, you're gonna probably have regrowth. So bigger cuts will result in fewer locations where you're gonna have a lot of possibly vigorous regrowth. But overall, pruning is not going to promote flowering and fruiting. It's gonna probably delay that.
Susan: If you over prune, then you can actually have so much vigor that the tree thinks it's going to die, and it overcompensates
John: Yeah. Over pruning will generally lead to a very vegetative tree, and it could suffer because it's not getting enough leaves to support the photosynthesis to grow the tree. In most fruit crops, including grapes and tree fruit, we want a balance.
You need a balance of both vegetative growth and reproductive growth, or flowering and fruiting. And it's maintaining that balance is the secret. And unfortunately it's not a one size fits all. It depends on the species, the cultivar, the rootstock, the soil, the climate.
All those things come into play when you try to balance the growth with the flowering and fruiting.
Susan: So Jesse in Sweden, Maine, zone 4b. Jesse writes, Northern Spy is my most vigorous tree, and Jesse says, and it only took nine years to set its first apple.
He said last year it was a good crop, but that didn't slow it down a bit. But nine years! What could be going on for Jesse that he had to wait that long for his Northern Spy to produce?
John: For those that are outside of North America, you might not know Northern Spy, but it's a very cold variety discovered in New York and it's a very wonderful variety for cooking and baking. It happens to be very vigorous, as Jesse pointed out. And it's also notoriously late to flower and fruit. So those are very common characteristics of Northern Spy and some other varieties.
The way to overcome that is really using a dwarfing rootstock. And we've done that in our orchards. We've used Malling 9 rootstock, for example. And you can get flowering and fruiting in, bring it down to about year three. So the rootstock itself can make a huge difference in both reducing the vigor and promoting flowering and fruiting much earlier.
Susan: There are so many interesting Facebook comments here. This one was from Tom in south central Illinois. So this is what Tom writes. I have some Campfields (that's a traditional American cider apple) on M-111 (that's the rootstock that he uses) that have outgrown, by far, any other variety that I have planted in my orchard.
All of the trees in my orchard are semi dwarf, and they're mostly on the M-111 rootstock. On the other hand, I have some Harrison apple trees (and that's also a very old American cider apple tree) and the Harrison apple trees are also on M-111, and they are the slowest growing of anything in the orchard.
So Tom says he has three of each variety. Each group is planted within 75 feet of the other. They're mixed together, so he feels like the soil is all the same, the climate is all the same, so why would some of these trees, the Campfields, that grows really quickly on the M-111 rootstock versus the Harrison that's just so slow on the same rootstock.
John: It's a very good question. I'm not familiar with Campfield. I'm a little bit familiar with Harrison, but although I haven't grown that one, but I am familiar with some cider apples. M-111 is classed as a semi vigorous rootstock, so it produces a generally a fairly large tree relative to the dwarfing rootstocks.
It could be the inherent vigor of those varieties. So for example, Campfield may be inherently more vigorous than Harrison. I don't have that information in front of me to know if that's actually true. If that's not true, some other possibilities are you do get a lot of variation in soil, even in short distances, that may play a role.
Or, you could have soil-borne diseases. For example, if you remove an apple tree and put an apple tree in the same place, you can get diseases. We call it apple replant disease. That could affect the growth of the new tree. So I'm just speculating on what it might be.
Another thing that can occur, and I'm not suggesting it's occurring here. But if you plant the union, where the tree is budded in the orchard, we call that a bud union, and that's the union between the cultivar or the scion and the rootstock. If that bud union goes underground or is covered with soil, the variety can actually develop its own roots, and that negates the effect of the rootstock.
[00:22:25] Understanding Tree Growth Factors
John: In this case, it would be M-111, so it'd be like a seedling. A tree growing without a rootstock, so that could make the tree grow faster. That's a possibility. You can quickly just inspect whether that union is above the ground. If it's buried, there's a chance that the tree has become scion rooted, and that could explain why it's growing faster.
But those are a few reasons they may or may not be the reason in this case.
Susan: It's a wonderful example because, again, he's comparing them side by side, which I'm sure is what scientists, you guys, do, right? You need to make comparisons.
John: Yeah.
Susan: Yeah.
[00:23:03] Impact of Shade on Fruit Trees
Susan: This is from Carl in northwest Florida and he writes, food forests imply shade, and that's something that must be considered. Also, I have gotten interested in the honey locust of the thornless types that allow a significant amount of sunlight to filter through. Carl is talking about people who grow their fruit trees in these beautiful food forests layered with native and other trees.
And so I guess my question for you is, to what extent could shade slow things down or affect how your tree is producing if you don't even notice that you've got an overhead tree shading your tree?
John: It's a great question, Carl. If you think about any tree, and particularly tree fruits, the driving force for any plant to grow is photosynthesis, and that requires sunlight.
So intercepting that sunlight allows the plant to grow. Generally in fruit trees, if you're gonna grow a fruit tree in a forest, you want a minimum of 30% sunlight. That's the threshold at which growers try to avoid, essentially looking for in a commercial situation, looking for about 70% interception of sunlight.
The more sunlight, the better. But if you're growing a tree under a shady canopy, a fruit tree under a shady canopy, it can grow, but it won't be as productive or grow as quickly as a counterpart growing in full sun.
Susan: And so he is mentioning one particular type of tree, the honey locust, which has very small little leaflets.
Would they perhaps allow a little bit more sunlight through?
John: Yeah, absolutely. I have, I enjoy some Sunburst locusts on my property and it provides a filtered sunlight, and sunlight to get through. I would think it'd be quite possible to grow a fruit tree under that. It probably will be much slower growing, but it may be able to bear fruit.
Usually if you have too little sunlight, the first thing that will affect the tree is the formation of flowers and fruit buds. So I think you'll know pretty quickly, the effect of the shading on the tree and its fruiting habit, once you try that.
[00:25:52] Managing Extreme Climates for Fruit Trees
Susan: An interesting twist to this question is, in an earlier episode of this show, we talked about growing fruit trees in extreme climates like Arizona.
And so in climates like Arizona, where it's like semi desert, they actually recommend planting your fruit tree with a little bit of shade, because he was explaining that it gets so hot that the baby fruit literally cooks right on the tree. So there are times when shade will be beneficial, depending on where you live and what your environmental conditions are.
John: Yeah, that's a good point. Pacific Northwest and western Canada had some extremely hot conditions this year and they experienced that excessive heat. Fruit trees, generally, anytime you get above 30 degrees, photosynthesis shuts down or slows down, and that affects the ability of the tree to cool and negatively affects growth.
So yeah, having some way for it to cool through shade or overhead irrigation can help the tree.
Susan: Yep. That makes sense.
[00:27:11] Grow Fruit Trees Faster, Thinning the Fruit, Training and Pruning, and More
Susan: Okay, until now we've talked a little bit about the types of trees that maybe grow more quickly, maybe they're a little more precocious. We talked a little bit about pruning.
Let's go into some more issues that could make help you grow fruit trees faster. We could talk about thinning the fruit. We can talk a little bit more about training and pruning. And pest and disease prevention.
Sure. Okay, great.
[00:27:38] Listener Questions and Expert Advice
Susan: John. We've been talking about fruit tree and vigor. Is there times when vigorous growing fruit trees are not a good thing?
John: You wanna balanced growth on the tree, so excess vigor can lead to disease pressures, it can result in making the tree difficult to manage, to spray, to harvest the fruit. All those things that are not always good. And so controlling the vigor is important either through pruning or other techniques in the orchard.
Susan: Also with regards to pest and disease, that's something that you brought up.
When you work with commercial growers, I suppose that's one of their priorities 'cause that would really slow things down, wouldn't it? And ruin productivity.
John: Diseases and pests can have a huge impact, not only on the tree and the health of the tree, but also on the fruit and the quality. So growers are very cognizant of trying to control those diseases and pests. And in our climate in Ontario, where it's a fairly humid and warm climate, lots of rain and moisture, some of those diseases are very difficult to control. For example, apple scab.
Much harder than drier climates like Washington state, more arid climates. They have an easier climate for growing organic fruit, for example, just simply because of the lower humidity levels and lower moisture, lower rainfall events.
Susan: So controlling pest and disease is going to be an important part of people's approach to having a fast growing and productive fruit tree. Something that people have to think about.
Here we've got an email from Ellie.
She's in Zone 4a in North Dakota, on the edge of the Missouri Couteau, and so my soils drain extremely fast. Any recommendations for me as I go about planting my trees this year? I have about a hundred fruit trees to plant, all on standard size rootstock, but I have concerns about keeping them wet enough.
Was planning on lots of mulch, but is there something else that I could do? Thanks. That's from Ellie.
John: Yeah, thanks for that question, Ellie. Really, I think you've hit the key thing is mulch. There's various forms of mulch. Wood chips, straw. That can play a huge benefit in maintaining soil moisture, especially in arid conditions.
The other thing is regular irrigation. So if you have a very sandy soil, you want to irrigate a little bit, ideally through trickle irrigation, and frequent irrigation. So possibly every day, just to provide a couple liters of water per day if you have access to the water, or every other day. Certainly on a sandy soil, you want do it more frequently than a heavier soil, like a clay loam or a heavier soil.
And I'm suspecting the reason she's using a seedling rootstock, is that's a cold environment and some of the dwarfing rootstocks don't survive very well in those cold environments.
And probably the growing season is a little bit shorter, so I'm speculating that's possibly why she's growing them on a seedling rootstock, and some of those are extremely hardy rootstocks.
Susan: If they managed to establish themselves, their root systems will stretch out so much that there'll be more surface area to collect the rain before it sinks down into the groundwater, right?
John: Yeah. Or they may actually penetrate deeper into the ground to access the moisture that is there, so that could be a good strategy for overcoming a sandy soil in an arid environment.
Susan: I've always wondered. In terms of the recommendations for sandy soil, you want to water more frequently. And what happens? Either way, the water likes to flow downwards in sandy soil. It's gonna go down fast.
So why is it better to do a little bit every day than to do a lot one day a week?
John: That relates to a relationship between what we call the soil water holding capacity and texture. So those sandy soils, if you have a really sandy soil, it cannot maintain, it just can't hold that water. It doesn't have the clay particles to prevent the water from just draining away from gravity.
So that's why you have to supply a little bit of water much more frequently than heavier type soil.
Susan: I like to think of the clay particles as like a little storage. They have little cupboards attached to them somehow. They manage to store a little bit of water in the tiny cupboards, whereas the sand particles, they don't store anything.
No cupboards.
John: Yeah.
Susan: I want to make sure that we talk about fertility management. As a home grower, as an amateur grower, you go to the garden center and they have all these fruit tree fertilizers designed for fruit trees. Maybe there's lots of nitrogen. I've noticed that all of them have different numbers for NPK.
So, to what extent is managing the fertility on your site and of your trees important in growing fruit trees fast and successfully?
John: Commercially, nutrition or fertilizer is extremely important to the grower, and it's really no different for a home grower of fruit trees. There are 16 essential nutrients in the plant.
The most common ones we talk about are NPK. Nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium. Those are what we call the macronutrients, the ones that are needed in higher amounts.
And really, what we wanna do is maintain an ideal level. We don't want to go below a minimum and we don't want to apply excessive amounts. Having a balance of these nutrients is important.
So commercially, what we do is we do a leaf analysis. We'll collect leaves in a certain fashion, dry them down, grind them, send them to a lab, and they actually tell us how much nitrogen, phosphorous, potassium, boron, zinc, iron, some of these essential nutrients are in the leaves, and that informs us whether we need to add more, or less, of a nutrient.
And therefore, we're careful of the environment. We're not adding too much nitrogen that leeches into the ground if we have excessive amount. If we have too little, then we have to apply more to get into these ideal ranges for the plant to grow and be healthy.
Susan: Yeah, that's interesting. So what you're saying is, what matters is the nutrients that are in your soil. There's no one size fits all. You're doing a test. You say you can dry up the leaves and send them for leaf tissue testing, but there is no one bottle of whatever that will solve all your problems.
John: That's correct, and really, a lot of researchers have investigated the forms of nitrogen and the forms of fertilizers. Really, it comes down to the actual element. These products vary in the way they're released to the soil, but when it comes down to it, it's really the nitrogen and the phosphorous ions that feed the root system that get into the tree.
So sometimes the form is less important than the actual amount of actual nitrogen or phosphorous potassium that are applied either to the ground or to the foliage of the tree.
[00:36:21] Challenges and Successes in Fruit Tree Cultivation
Susan: So I'm curious. In terms of your work, do you ever work directly one-on-one with commercial growers?
Do you end up seeing success? Do you have rewarding experiences where you've worked with somebody or you know that your research is helping people to produce more successful harvests?
John: Yeah, actually that's one of the greatest satisfactions I get in this job. I do a lot of work with the commercial growers in Ontario.
I do some studies right on their farms, and I do see enormous success by these growers. And they're working under extremely, sometimes difficult, situations with competition from outside of Canada. They're dealing with weather issues, increasing costs of production. But I do see a tremendous success.
And some of our growers in Ontario and in Canada are leaders in the field and it actually is a privilege to work with them. And I often learn so much from them just by being with them. They are a great teacher to me, and I value that interaction.
Susan: So it's a two-way street.
Everybody's bringing their expertise. They're experiencing, you're working together and you're saying, Hey, let's hone this. Let's make this go better, so that we can produce marketable fruit that customers really want so that they don't have to import it from China.
John: Yeah, that's certainly my goal is to help Canadian and, more specifically, Ontario fruit growers, but I do work with organizations in other parts of the world.
And yeah, really the goal is to produce sustainable fruit locally, and we can do it here in Canada, in Ontario, and there's enormous potential for growth. But the economics are the challenge right now, for many growers, and the climate.
Susan: Yeah. Oh, climate change. Oh my gosh. Are you seeing some challenges around that?
John: We see much more variability in the weather. The main concerns with growing fruit trees is excess moisture or drought conditions. Some growers experience hail, cold winters.
The tree is out in the orchard. It can't protect itself, so the growers have to find ways to overcome some of these challenges. They're dealing with often spring times where the trees are flowering earlier and that predisposes them to frost, so some of these issues are big and they're not easy to overcome and every growing season, as they say, is different. And so each year, each growing season brings new challenges and, often, the weather's a big part of that.
Susan: Amazing. I don't know about the rest of the people listening to you and this show today, but I just feel really honored to have the opportunity to work with fruit trees to let them teach me and show me their wisdom.
When you interact with the fruit tree, you realize it's not so simple. You don't just plant a thousand or 10,000 trees and just wait for the payday. There's just so many delicate things to work on.
John: Yeah, that's absolutely true. It's really a package system.
There's a system approach. There's many things that we learn, to grow fruit trees successfully.
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Susan: Hey everybody. I hope you enjoyed this classic episode and I hope you learned a lot. If you want to learn more about fruit tree care, make sure you're on my newsletter. You can go to orchardpeople.com/sign-up, and you'll get lots more information about upcoming podcasts and videos and articles and lots more.
Take care, and I'll see you next time. Bye for now.