Orchard People

[00:00:00] Introduction to Fruit Tree Nutrition
Susan: Hi everyone. Healthy fruit trees produce so much amazing fruit for us humans to enjoy, but where do they get the energy to do that? The fruit trees feed us, but who feeds the fruit trees? The answer is that we do. All fruit tree growers must feed their fruit trees to ensure that they have the energy to stay healthy and produce a healthy harvest.
But here's the thing about fruit trees and nutrition. You feed your fruit tree, it uses up the energy, and then you have to feed it again at some point once that food is used up. That's just the way the world works. Now, fruit tree foods can include compost or well rotted manure, and there are lots of other organic fertilizer options that you can learn about in my online course Certificate in Fruit Tree Care.
[00:00:53] Understanding Biochar: A Unique Soil Amendment
Susan: But biochar is different. Biochar isn't really a food source for your fruit tree. It's more like a food storage and delivery system. It does this by providing a long lasting and cozy space where beneficial soil microbes and soil nutrients can spend quality time together. The microbes process the nutrients, and then make them available for your fruit tree.
[00:01:24] Meet the Experts: Mark and Laurie Mann
Susan: So in today's program, we are going to dig deep into biochar with my guests on today's show, Mark and Laurie Mann of the American BioChar Company. Mark is an expert in forestry and agronomy, and Laurie specializes in chemistry and biology, and they are going to explain what biochar is and how it works.
So on the line, we have Mark Mann and Laurie Mann. Thank you guys for coming on the show today.
So nice to have you.
Laurie: Thank you, Susan.
Mark: Good to be here. Looking forward to it.
Susan: Good. Okay. let's get you working here explaining some stuff about biochar.
[00:02:08] The Science Behind Biochar
Susan: But first of all, Mark, let's start with you. Can you tell me a little bit about your company? Why were you so passionate to start it, and what roles do you and Laurie play?
Mark: Thank you for asking. The idea of biochar came to me after a decade long test plot in South Bend, Indiana. When I realized, as I was looking at the root system development with Dr. Chiney from Purdue University, that if we had some kind of a fixed carbon, we could probably solve the issue of poor soils in the urban environment forever.
And that's what really started my search. And that was in 1999. September, actually. And Laurie and I have been working together as husband and wife and business partners forever. 30 plus years. And both companies, both Plant Growth Management Systems and American BioChar Company have been focused on increasing the health of trees in the urban environment and organic environment.
So that means agriculture, fruit trees, home trees, anything that grows. Turf. Including turf. Yeah.
Susan: Including turf. Okay, great. Laurie, now I know your background. You're a teacher, is that correct? You were a teacher.
Laurie: About 12 years I taught chemistry and biology Uhhuh.
Susan: Okay. So what I'm going to do is I want to talk to you just for a minute or two, and I want you to explain to me what exactly biochar is.
But I think what we're gonna do is can I get you to pick up the phone that you're using for sound? 'cause we're cutting out a little bit, so keep that close to me. Okay. That might be a little better. Alright. Okay.
[00:03:59] Biochar Applications and Benefits
Susan: So first of all, can you tell me what exactly is biochar? What is this thing that we, crumbly stuff we're putting on our soil?
What is it?
Laurie: It is the residue after pyrolysis of plant material. And specifically what we utilize is soft wood. And we pyrolysize, which is burning at very high temperature rather fast, with very low to no oxygen. So it's different than combustion in that way. And it really cleans out the volatile materials and they gas off.
And what is left behind is the lignin skeleton, the carbon structure, the fiber that makes up these trees, and everything else is out. And because trees specifically have so much vessels, we'd get this real porous stuff. So that's what really is left over is what I call the lignin skeleton with all those pores.
Susan: Okay. So biochar is basically wood burnt up at a very high heat so it becomes a porous substance. Does it have to be wood or can you make biochar from other ingredients?
Laurie: You can. There is a wide range of things that they are making biochar with right now.
You can make it out of just saw grass or walnut shells. I know they use coconut shells and they've actually used biosolids and actually trash, that is processed from cities. We're not crazy about those things. What we prefer is soft wood, and you can use even hardwood oak, but we prefer a pine because then it burns through and completely opens up those vessels that you find in the trees.
Susan: Okay.
Laurie: They do the best on that.
Susan: So each little granule, each little piece of biochar, you sprinkle it. For instance, we'll talk about application a little later, but somehow it goes into the soil. I understand that it is not actually providing nutrition for your trees or the microorganisms.
So why do we want it in our soil? Why is it good?
Laurie: You actually did a very good job of that in your intro, and I appreciate that because I do think sometimes when people are thinking carbon, they're automatically thinking that it's a food source. And in this situation, as you well put it, the reason it's good for the trees, for the soil, in whatever aspect is being used, is because it is changing the structure.
It will last, Susan, six to 800 years. It's gonna be there in the soil that long. And while it's doing that, it's going to be filled up, like you said, with microorganisms. It's going to hold water in the soil. It's gonna hold air in the soil. The reason our soils need this is because in the urban setting, it is so different than the natural setting.
We're not creating structure in the soils as well. When we mow, we take away the grass. We may put in things like mulch and stuff, but that is an active, do you remember I was talking about that at one point, Susan, when we talked about active versus fixed carbons? And this fixed carbon, that's gonna stay there as long as over 600 years, is going to keep creating and supporting biology, which is actually, it's the biology that actually improves the soil structure.
We're just creating a structural opportunity. Can we use that later?
Susan: Yeah. I like that. That makes sense. I see it, for instance, in orchards you often put up bird boxes because you want to attract certain types of birds to your orchard that will then eat the insect pests that are in the orchard.
So in the same way, with the biochar, we're creating some habitat in the soil to draw those microorganisms towards our fruit trees and our fruiting crops.
Laurie: Like that movie.
Susan: Like which movie?
Laurie: Field of dreams. Build it and they will come.
Susan: I love that.
Laurie: Kevin Costner.
Susan: I love that. Okay, so how is biochar different from what my husband uses on the barbecue? He uses charcoal in his barbecue? Can I take that charcoal, crunch it up into pieces and throw it in my soil? Will that do the same thing as biochar?
Laurie: Mark and I used to do that too. There's nothing wrong with that.
But you're not gonna get the same kind of response. First of all, the ash is very high. It is very basic. So that's not really healthy for soils. Actually, soils do better on a slightly acidic side, and that has everything to do with making the metals that are naturally in there.
Calcium, potassium. You need a slightly acidic soil situation to make those available for the plants. So first of all, you're making it very basic, alkaline.
Second of all, a lot of the charcoal that you're putting in your grill, that's gonna have chemicals in it anyway. I wouldn't want that.
And lastly, the pores are not there. It's not the same kind of. So it's an incomplete burning. It's not porous and it's not consistent. So those are the reasons why I personally don't think it's comparable.
Susan: Okay.
[00:09:55] Listener Questions and Practical Tips
Susan: Quick email.
We've got an email here from Lisa, and Lisa says, hi Susan. Very interesting topic today. I would love to try this biochar at the San Romano orchard. So Lisa is one of my former students here in Toronto, and there's a wonderful orchard that we set up.
Thank you Lisa, for listening in and for writing. Let's talk about the size of the pieces of biochar. Goes through the burning process. Does the burning process then turn it into a powder? Some sort of granule? Does the size of the pieces of biochar even matter?
Laurie: That's a good question.
Our biochar is like a rough coffee ground, and I think that's a good size. You don't want it too large because you wanna make sure that you have enough of it broken down small enough that the surface area, all those pores and everything, are easily gotten to.
Too big, and it's gonna take a lot longer for organisms to get in there and populate the area.
Too small, and it does several things interesting when it's powdery. First of all, it can move through the soil quicker and not stay in the location you want. There's a certain size. Ours is 0.5 to 2.0 millimeters in size, with a slight range. Sometimes you'll find a little bigger, sometimes a little smaller, but ranges around there.
And a really small powder can actually, and this is interesting, can actually release water that it holds a lot faster and make it a little bit hydrophobic. Not wanting, it will resist water. And the whole point is to have a large enough granule that will hold some water in it.
And our biochar has more than 20-25% water. And it's interesting because you could feel it and it doesn't feel wet. But you do want a little bit of moisture, and the smaller the particles, the harder the amount of moisture is held into it, if that makes sense. And then if you can't hold it, the soil is not gonna do much better. So we believe that the size does matter. That our size is a pretty good size to go toward.
Susan: So we have loads of emails. We have loads of emails coming in right now. I'm gonna go through them.
We've got a question here from Kaylyn. She says, where does biochar come from? Is it renewable or like peat moss? Is there a limited amount of it?
Laurie: Oh, she knows her peat moss, doesn't she? Yep. Would you like to answer this one?
Mark: Have at it.
Laurie: Okay. wonderful question. Ours comes from wood. And actually, you do a better job of explaining how we get that wood. I'd love it if you would talk to them about that, Mark.
Mark: All right. This is what we do. We don't believe in growing trees to cut them down to make biochar. That makes zero sense whatsoever. So all the southern yellow pine that we use is what we call bird's nest. The things that can't be used for timber production.
So there's zero waste in what we're doing. In fact, we're accumulating what would've been wasted, and we're producing a high quality biochar with the wood waste. So I assume that the question is peat moss. Obviously it's not renewable, over thousands of years it could be, but this is something we're trying to do.
We're very conscious of the fact that we're trying to do something that is beneficial to the environment from point 0 to point 100.
Susan: Sounds good. Okay. Another question for one of you guys. Does biochar have any effect on the taste of fruits and vegetables? That is from Cliff.
Laurie: Yes.
Susan: Yes. That's one word answer. Good.
Laurie: I'm trying to be facetious. Yes. In fact, we made sure that we had a couple numbers to throw at for you, Susan. One of the things we see is that the nutritional aspect. Well, let me just say this.
We did some testing on some blueberries with and without utilizing our product, the biochar, and this is what we came out with. And this was not even a full season use. This was a late season use. And we believe that we'll see even more improvement every year that it's getting an opportunity to be utilized in the soil.
If the plant is doing better, and to be honest with you, Susan, what's really happening is if the soil microbes at the root area, the rhizosphere of the plant is doing well, it will utilize things, the nutrients and everything else, better. It will be a less stressed plant too. And what they found in the blueberries that we had nutritional tests done on. This is crazy.
First of all, there was a 3% increase in sugar. Now that doesn't seem like much, but it was enough to make a difference. This is gonna be sweeter. We also saw 33% increase in dietary fiber. Yay. And we also saw 125% increase in protein for blueberries. I actually didn't realize that blueberries had that kind of protein, but they do.
And then lastly, for blueberries, this is very important. Blueberry growers really actually get paid based on the nutritional value. And one of the things was that we had a 11% increase in antioxidants for blueberries. You're gonna have a range. You're gonna have some blueberries that maybe really need a lot more support in the soil and you're gonna have a bigger difference and maybe some others that are doing really well.
But to answer that in a mathematical way, yes, it does improve the nutrition and therefore, I can assume, the taste. Mark and I are real strong believers that fruits and vegetables used to taste better a long time ago when they were less dependent upon the synthetics that we do now. We do believe that.
And by enhancing the soil microbiology and adding things that way, we're gonna produce a better plant across the board.
Susan: Just a quick clarification. We got lots more questions to go through, but quick clarification. You put the biochar on. When and when did you actually test the quality of the harvest?
Does it take a year to improve the quality? Does it take three years?
Laurie: First of all, we did it in June. And a lot of times, soil amendments are added much sooner than June. 'Cause that's a good question you're asking, number one, and we tested at the end of the harvest, at that harvest of that particular year.
So it was more limited, so then the next year, you would do the applications. And I do wanna say, and we talked about this briefly Susan a while back, we put on there our biochar blend, not biochar by itself. And that's something I know that you and I talked about once, earlier on in regards to the importance of blending.
So, I hope that answers your question though, about the fruit.
Susan: It answers my question. And we are definitely gonna talk about the biochar blend and the idea that biochar alone may not actually help your plants, that you need to mix it with something else. But let's go through. We got a couple more questions and then I promise you we will get to that.
Okay. We've got a question from Julie from Scarborough, Ontario. I put in a few bare root trees last spring, including two pawpaws and a quince. When is the best time to apply biochar and how? Julie gives us an excuse to talk about application. Thank you, Julie. So what would you say?
Mark: Alright. On the when to apply it, now you already have 'em in the ground.
It's best, if you can, to apply it in the granular form during planting. And so you would set the plant or the tree as you normally would in the hole after you properly prepare it. After you start filling that hole in to support the tree, you wring it with a charged biochar. You finish the hole up to about the top one third, and then you wanna focus on applying it the top six inches of the soil and then seat the plant in properly, watered in, and then spread the charged carbon or the biochar around the top of the plant. You want to be able to get that biology in that soil really active in the top six to eight inches of the soil. So that's the best way to apply it if you're using a granular form.
Susan: And I want to ask again here, so are you applying the biochar by itself or are you mixing it with compost or something else?
Mark: That's a good question, Susan. If you apply biochar by itself, because of how good it is at doing what it does, it will literally suck everything it can suck outta the soil to charge itself. So if you put, we call it naked char, uncharged biochar on the ground, yes, it will do a good job of amending soil over a period of time, but oftentimes it actually draws more micronutrient nutrients, in other words, things the plant needs to grow, away from the tree or the plant for that first year, sometimes two years.
So if you're applying it by itself, in fact, it would never be as beneficial as a charged carbon, and you could charge it with something like compost.
If you had a high quality compost, you could do the same thing we're doing.
Susan: Okay, great. So let's talk about that. This is our excuse to talk about charging biochar. It's a fancy word, isn't it, to charge your biochar? Simplify it for us. Does it just mean mixing it with something else?
[00:20:06] Understanding Biochar and Its Benefits
Susan: Is that what charging means?
Laurie: Yeah, that's a good question. And so what we're talking about, like Mark said, a good biochar is going to be highly porous, so you want to put it into the soil mixed with something. We have found that if you put biochar first and then put something on top of it, it doesn't do as well. It's better to put, say, let's just say a mature compost.
And I emphasize mature compost, Susan, because sometimes people put on compost and it's green or it's incomplete and it's not small enough to actually be active. The organisms literally have to do a lot of work just to get it to the condition to utilize. So I do like to emphasize mature compost.
And there's lots of different kind of composts out there, manure and things like that. Whatever someone has as a favorite. You can blend it. You can do it with fertilizers. You can do it with what we like.
We like humate. We take humate, which is a superficial mined pulled material that is from long time ago. Thousands and thousands of years ago, the United States was covered with fresh water seas. Then it left behind these veins of dead and decaying plant and animals. And so now it's gone through decomposition, years and years, thousands of years, like I mentioned.
And we actually blend ours with that. And so some of the smaller things get into the pore. Some of it's just available, but it ends up creating, also with the moisture, it creates a blend that the biochar is already partially filled with what it's trying to do naturally.
Susan: Interesting. So that makes sense.
I'm gonna summarize. I just wanna check. So I see biochar as this. These granules that have lots of teeny tiny holes in them. These holes are going to be five star accommodation for microorganisms in the soil. And the holes suck in and dry in nutrients, the exact nutrients that the microorganisms want. So it's like a five star hotel where you have an all you can eat buffet in every single room. That's what it's like.
Laurie: And water, and air, and accommodations.
Susan: Yeah. Do they have bathrobes in every little hole for each of the little microorganisms?
Laurie: Yeah, definitely do. Only the quality biochar though.
Susan: Only the quality biochar. Okay. We've got lots more to talk about. We've got so many examples that I wanna talk about with you guys.
[00:22:48] The Role of Wood Vinegar and Making Biochar Affordable
Susan: So before we talk about some concrete examples, I've got some other good questions here from listeners. Here is the question from Cameron. Cameron says, what is the role of wood vinegar in maintaining the health of tree crops, and how can we make biochar and its associated byproducts more affordable and accessible for farmers? It seems that there is a growing interest in the subject, but cost remains an obstacle to higher adoption rates.
Mark: Alright. Wood vinegar is a very interesting byproduct of creation of biochar through pyrolysis.
And there's been a lot of work done with that. It looks like it's gonna be a really good source of food for the biology and the soil. But of course, that's a byproduct of the production of biochar through pyrolysis. As far as making it more affordable for the ag industry, that's where we actually created a different product other than our granular form of biochar, because it wasn't cost effective to put out the amount of granular biochar. The farmers just couldn't do it.
A few years ago I designed another form of biochar, which we may or may not have time to talk about today. But with that form we can go down to as little as 1.5 to 2 gallons of this liquid form of biochar per acre.
So that means that, now we're down to a point where, with the increase in the harvest yield of soybean, cotton, corn, that kind of thing, that we can actually entice the farmers into using it because they can actually make a profit.
Laurie: The nice thing is that we have conversations with not just farmers, but the input can be reduced, Susan, because all those pores can hold the material and you don't have as much leaching, whether it's synthetic or not, on fertilizers and other inputs.
There is less necessary, and you've gone as far as to say, drop your inputs by 50%. Drop it down to even 25%. Now, people are a little nervous about doing that. And we've had people who are like, I'll just do a little bit. But even like in Rancho Cordova in California, they have seen, once they start using it, their trust in reducing input occurs.
And so, by using biochar and a biochar blend, they can reduce other inputs as well. So there's also that cost savings. You get what I'm saying? It's not like necessarily an add-on so much as a readjustment of where you're putting your inputs.
Susan: Gotcha. So basically what you're saying is yes, you do have to pay for biochar.
No, it is definitely not cheap if you're doing a whole farm. But hopefully you will compensate by not having to use as much fertilizer and stuff. And I guess time really works out.
Laurie: And Susan, we did observe that some biochars are a little bit more expensive than others. Ours is not inexpensive 'cause it's a higher quality.
And of course you're gonna get better results from a higher quality. But, I think that I haven't always gotten the feeling that people thought it was as expensive as I think they might've anticipated. And maybe, depending on who he was talking to, maybe things are a little bit different on that.
Producing your own. There's a lot of really good ideas on how to do it yourself, 'cause that was a question too, if I remember. He had a lot of questions in that whole thing.
But you can do that. I have found that some people who've started doing that or blending theirs have not always been real crazy about it with the time required. But if they wanted to, there's some really good resources that they can go to the International IBI, or the USBI, that's the United States Biochar Initiative. We'll be glad to give information for them to go and look at these other resources and how to do what Mark and I call more boutique type biochar creation.
Susan: And how to make your own.
And it's funny 'cause right here on my desk, I have a book called, I haven't read it through yet, but it's called Gardening with Biochar: Supercharge Your Soil with Bioactivated Charcoal. And this is by Jeff Cox if people wanna look that up. Jeff COX. So that'll have some instructions on how to make it yourself.
And this guy is a real proponent of that as an option.
[00:27:44] Biochar's Impact on Soil Types and pH Levels
Susan: There's another question here, and this one is from Lisa who emailed us earlier. I like this question. She says, does soil type affect the effectiveness of char? And also separate to that, can the char actually make your soil more acidic or get your soil out of balance in terms of pH? Is it appropriate for every type of soil?
Mark: Both of 'em are excellent questions. And from my background in agronomy and forestry, these are the kind of things that we would ask all the time. How is that gonna change our soil? Because we understand that a modification in the soil pH, for example, can have a drastic impact on certain species of trees.
In this case, we literally used this product on every soil type, literally, across the United States, from soils in Northern California to Tennessee, to Florida, to Michigan, to Indiana, even on the island of La Gonâve in Haiti.
And it did not matter what soil type you put it on. It didn't matter if it was a high silt, if it was silty clay, if it was an aggregate loam. It makes zero difference. It's all about interacting with this whole biology. So whether it's a pure sand, as we did that in Florida with Tropicana, or whether it's on a hard clay in Illinois. So it really makes no difference. And you cannot adjust the pH on the soil. You cannot. It will always go back to its original pH.
You can modify it around the root zone, but not for long term, and biochar does not do that. Biochar increases microbial populations, keeping the soil pH at basically what it started out as.
Laurie: And, if I may, but I get excited about this point because let's talk about in reality.
So depending on what you're mixing with, the biochar has a basic, it does have a slightly alkaline pH to it, but the amount that you're putting in is not gonna overwhelm and change the soil itself that much. Okay? It may at the beginning, but there's always an adjustment.
And here's the reality of it. The soil and its pH, in reality, can be affected and maintained and changed more by the biology, the rhizosphere, that area of the soil around the roots actually changes in pH if people were to actually do a comparison and stuff as a plant continues to grow through the season.
It has different needs. It's at the beginning, the shoots. Later it's the flowers. Then it becomes fruit. Then it's the closing up and finalizing, et cetera. If you were to really look at the biology components, the different population, percentages, and numbers, and what was being produced, enzymes, et cetera, you actually have a slight change in the soils anyway, right in that space. And that's where it matters.
I get excited about that because the biology is being supported by that biochar. Mark's tapping me, saying, okay, Laura, you went deep enough.
Susan: Now we've got lots more questions. So I also wanted to ask. I got a question. First I'll go to Bev's question here. Boy, I have a question too, but first Bev's question.
Hi Susan. My question is, do co-generation plants which burn wood chips to produce electricity, produce biochar that can be used for the vegetable garden? Thanks, Bev.
Mark: Great question. That's a really good question. That's a really good question. With co-generation plants, unfortunately, they are not always a true pyrolysis plant.
So they're using wood, they're burning it to completion. However, there are some, which you can call 'em co-generation plants if you wanted to, that are actually designed specifically to create a biochar. And they also either create a hydrogen through that pyrolysis process that can power a modified diesel engine, or they can actually produce electricity through heat.
So there are different ways of doing it. The original co-generation plants, and we have a lot of 'em in California, that I wish we could use them to produce a really high quality biochar, but they just can't do it. It's not designed the same way. Yeah.
Laurie: I can add.
What Bev needs to ask of the co-generation produced biochar, what feedstock was put in there. Because a lot of times, a lot of these are actually using landfill type stuff. It's diverting landfill, which is inconsistent. And so putting it in for the production of food, I personally, Mark and I both personally feel very strong about what you start with and its consistency.
If it's this week we got this, and next week we're gonna have a higher amount of something else, you're not gonna get the kind of consistency. So when you say, when add so much per volume of soil or add so much per a thousand square feet, you can't say that if it's not consistent in the beginning.
Susan: That leads right into this wonderful question from Nancy from Goshen, Indiana. So Nancy says, you mentioned different types of material to be used for biochar. You said walnut shells, you said human waste or garbage.
Laurie: Even chicken manure. Even chicken manure is even used.
Susan: So Nancy asks, is all biochar, regardless of source, considered organic or suitable for organic farming?
Laurie: No. And again, it does come back to what is the feedstock and the process, but mostly the feedstock. Our biochar is OMRI Listed. I don't know Susan, if you have ever talked about just how the term organic can be misused, by the way. Ours is OMRI Listed, so it is organic, and so it has to go through a lot of steps. There are different contaminants that can be found in biochar. Burning doesn't necessarily remove some of these things.
So for example, if there was a wood feedstock that was using pallets and treated wood leftover, you would have stuff showing up in the biochar at the end. So not every biochar, anything from manure, that will not be OMRI Listed. There are OMRI listing requirements of what has to be starting out and the quality and the production.
So I hope that answered that question.
Susan: That's a great answer. So
[00:34:57] Using Biochar Correctly and Its Long-Term Benefits
Susan: Laurie and Mark, I wanted to ask about the right and wrong ways to use biochar.
Earlier when we were talking, you were talking about companies encouraging people to sprinkle the biochar on their grass. What happens, in a worst case scenario, if you use it wrong? What would happen and what is the right way to use it?
Mark: Okay. Worst case scenario is that if it's on grass or if it's around a succulent plant or a small tree, you'll actually cause chlorosis in the leaves of the tree, because you're literally not allowing the nutrients to get to the tree because it's literally charging the carbon.
Now, that's if you go at a pretty high rate of application of uncharged carbon. If you go very small amounts, you can mitigate that negative and get a positive out of that, but that would take literally a couple years to make that happen. So there's a positive. There's a negative to it.
Susan: Mark, would you ever use biochar if you were a fruit tree nursery or something, would you ever use it in a potted plant?
Mark: Absolutely. Yeah. Now if you went to as little amount as by cubic volume, to as little as probably down to 5% of biochar mixed into the growing medium, that would be a really good start.
Laurie: And would that be biochar?
Mark: That would be biochar. You could actually use biochar in our growing medium, and it worked very well as a blend, because you're gonna be adding all the other things you're adding as a normal practice, and in that naked char, that biochar that's not charged, acts as a holding point for all the nutrients and microbiology that you're adding too. So yeah, there's some really good reasons to add it too, at a smaller amount.
Susan: The other question that I wanted to ask is about using, we talked about, and you mentioned early on, the biochar will last hundreds of years once you add it to your soil.
Is it possibly a one-time application? Because again, it does cost money. Can you apply it once to your orchard, to your farm and then let it go and let it do its work for the next 600 years?
Mark: I think it's very possible. Right now what we're finding is that, if we're on very marginal soils, very poor soils, that it may take up to two to three applications at higher rates to actually achieve your goal.
If you are on a soil that's not bad, but you'd like to make it better, then I think you could get away from possibly doing one application or higher rate and literally say, I'm done. And then go back and feed the microbes with something more like liquid humate or a compost tea or something like that.
So once you have that base in the ground, I do believe that it may be possible to say, okay, we've accomplished our goal. Let's move on.
Laurie: And when he says that, when he talks about several applications, you can just do one application a year and you could even do something like a full application suggested the first year, perhaps the next year, cut that in half.
You don't have to do full amounts. But just like you said, it depends on what you're working with and what the problems of that soil might be.
Susan: Interesting. Okay.
[00:38:48] How to Purchase Biochar and Its Importance
Susan: So people listening to the show, we had lots of questions today. Lots of people may be interested in your product. There are other biochar products on the market.
If they want to know more about the products that you provide, where do they go for more information, and how would they actually order from you?
Laurie: Let me take care of that. We have a website. It's, am for American. Biochar for biochar (ambiochar.com). And so the first thing you can do is they can just go to that website and there's some information there as well.
It's still in progress and I'm adding different things all the time, and they can go and see the products that we have. They can order, Susan, directly from us, by either calling the office as the numbers provided there and/or emailing us. And we cut out the middleman. It's just directly sent to them.
Susan: Do you also sell through stores, or is it only through your website? And I know you go to certain events throughout the year, if we ever have big conventions and events again.
Laurie: Yeah, really. We do have some distributors in Tennessee and some other places.
And we sell locally right now in the Michigan area.
So no, not yet. And when you do that, you start actually adding costs to that. So we're not real pushing real hard yet to do that.
Susan: You guys seem very passionate about this. I know that you have been working with agriculture and forestry for a long time. What lit your fire about biochar?
Why didn't you start a company doing something else? Why is this so important to you?
Mark: You sound like my wife.
Laurie: That's a good thing!
Mark: Actually, i've always been passionate about soils and I knew that the soils were our life. And, I'm only, we're only 58 or so years old. I don't know. But, the point here is that we're old enough to watch the degradation of our soils, and it's disturbing.
And it has been disturbing for me for almost 20 years. Very bothersome. So I knew that we had to be part of a solution somehow. And the only way that I could, almost 20 years ago when I realized that if we could find some way to get a carbon source back in the soil, that I knew that was gonna be the answer.
Now, did I know where we were gonna end up with that? No, I didn't. But this is where we're right now, I think my passion comes from the fact that I know that if we don't take care of our soils, they aren't gonna take care of us. And one of the reasons that we have so many, in my opinion, that we have so many health issues right now is 'cause of the quality of food we're eating, which is exactly why we're doing some work with missions groups in different parts of the world to actually get them food that is very well.
Number one, they can't actually grow something themselves they're in and they can actually eat something that's very nutritious. So that's our passion. And I intend to do this until God calls me home, so.
Susan: Hopefully you've got many more years to go before that.
So Mark and Laurie, thank you so much for coming on the show.
[00:42:17] Conclusion and Final Thoughts
Susan: I know there is so much more we could be talking about. These incredible projects that you're supporting in Haiti. Maybe you'll come back one day and talk more about it. But I totally see the passion that you have for the work that you do and everybody who listens to this show.
We are passionate about fruit trees, about perennial crops. We wanna make the world a better place and we wanna help our beautiful planet. So thank you so much for coming on the show today.
Laurie: Thank you, Susan.
Mark: Thank you, Susan.
Laurie: You rock.
Susan: Okay. Thank you. Alright, so that's it for today's episode of the Urban Forestry Radio Show.
Thank you so much for tuning in. It's been wonderful to have you as a listener, and I hope to see you again next time.