Orchard People

[00:00:00] Introduction and Disclaimers
The following program does not necessarily represent the views and opinions of Reality Radio 101, its advertisers and sponsors, or its listening audience. Listener discretion is advised. This episode of the Urban Forestry Radio Show has been brought to you by Stark Brothers Nurseries and Orchards. Two centuries of fruit tree expertise.
[00:00:42] Welcome to the Urban Forestry Radio Show
Welcome to the Urban Forestry Radio Show. Here on Reality Radio 101. In this radio show and podcast, we learn about fruit trees, permaculture, aboriculture, and so much more. So if you love trees, and especially fruit trees, or if you're interested in living a more sustainable life, then this is the place for you.
I'm your host, Susan Poizner, of the Fruit Tree Care Training website, OrchardPeople. com. Thanks for tuning in. And enjoy the show. Welcome
to the urban forestry radio show with your host, Susan Poizner. To contact Susan live right now, send her an email instudio101@gmail. com.
And now right to your host, Susan Poizner.
[00:01:47] Organic vs. Conventional Fruit Trees
you may grow your fruit trees organically, but do you grow organic fruit trees? I personally don't use chemical sprays or fertilizers on my fruit trees here in Toronto. After all, I'm growing my trees in a public park, and these products can be toxic. But, when I order fruit trees for planting from specialist fruit tree nurseries, It has never occurred to me to ask if those young fruit trees that I buy are grown organically.
And even if they aren't organically grown fruit trees, Does it really matter? After all, those young trees are only in the ground for a year or two before they're dug up and sent to me for planting. So in this episode of the Urban Forestry Radio Show and Podcast, I'm going to explore the pros and cons of buying organic fruit trees.
[00:02:39] Interview with Taylor Ingram
And my guest today is Taylor Ingram of Stark Brothers Nurseries and Orchards in Missouri. Stark Brothers has been selling conventionally grown fruit trees, amazingly, for 200 years. But this year the company has introduced a new line of organically grown fruit trees and fruiting plants, and I want to find out why.
Now, before we dig into today's interview, I am so excited to announce that Stark Brothers is now going to be this show's gold sponsor for all of 2019. This partnership with Stark Brothers will help me do what I love to do. Interview experts from around North America and beyond about fruit trees and food forests, permaculture and arboriculture so that I can share that amazing information with you, my fantastic listeners.
So now Taylor Ingram, welcome to the show today.
Thank you. Thank you for having me. thanks for being on the show. I'm so interested. Stark Brothers has been around for 200 years. That's a long time. Why is it this that this year you guys have decided to officially have an organic line of fruit trees? we've actually been around for so long that our fruit trees were grown organically in the past, but they weren't really considered organic because it was just standard.
But we have had some customers call us with the new trends and people being concerned about GMOs and how they're getting their food and how it's being produced. And they've come to us requesting different, organic products. Organic products are going to be including our fruit trees and also the different products that they're used to grow fruit trees. So with a lot of consideration with our working with a certifier, we've been able to provide them and meet those demands of our customers. really, Taylor, honestly, I think about it when I order my fruit trees and I get these little young trees sent to me for planting. They're so young, like what could really be so different with an organically grown fruit tree and a conventionally grown one?
They've been in the ground, what, maybe for one or two years. Is it really such a big difference?
[00:04:48] Understanding Organic Certification
yeah, there's a big difference when it comes to organic and conventional. So for us, in order to have our trees certified as organic, you have to have them in a plot of land that's been untreated for many years.
It has to be pre approved by your certifier. And then they have to be treated for a year or two organically that ensures that there are no chemical residues or anything like that. that the main difference between organic and conventional is going to be the chemical use and the residues that are on it. So with conventional, it's going to be a lot less, restricted.
So you can use a lot more different types of chemicals and you don't really have to have as much of a rotation. So you can use a chemical multiple times. But with organic, you have to have more naturally derived chemicals that are used, whether it's pesticide, herbicide, or any sort of fertilizer has to be pre approved by your company. And I think that's something that's really interesting about organic is that it does take usually more manual labor. And so it does provide more jobs in the market, too, which is, I think, a really important benefit to the economy and to our people. That's really interesting. It's something that I haven't really thought about.
But then there's the other human element. When you are using conventional pesticides, fungicides, and that kind of thing, whether it's on the rootstocks or, the original scion, the trees that you're getting the scions from, does that affect human health as well? The workers that are doing the work?
I don't know. Yeah, it really does. There's a lot of, chemicals, a lot of leukemia has been traced back to chemical uses in fields. You'll notice that a lot of people who do work in conventional agriculture will have higher rates. It does also, the crops that you're harvesting organically versus conventionally, there's a lot less of a risk for carcinogens that are commonly found in chemicals that are used in pesticides and fertilizers, and that's not to mention the environmental effects as well. But back to the idea that these fruit trees are really just in the ground for, a year or two. tell me a little bit about the process. You've got your root stocks, tell me how, it's all going to look.
How long are they in the ground and how much chemical input would there even be in that short amount of time? So we put them in the ground, usually around March or April so that they can have growth. And you're talking about the rootstock, right? That's the rootstock? Yeah, we plant rootstock, yep.
You get, some certifiers allow you to plant plugs, but that's a lot more, work to do because you have to get all of the media that you're planting in certified by your certifier, and there's a lot of, issues a lot of times with that. So if you use a rootstock, it's going to be a lot more, easy to prove that it is organically certified.
But we put them in the ground. we do use IPM and Integrated pest management. So that way we can, we do scouting. We look for certain types of pests. We use a manual and biological maneuvers, whether it's recruiting certain predators area, whether it's an insect that eats on aphids or whether it's going to be a hawk or owl nest, you can recruit those in the area that can control rabbits. And then as a last resort, we will use organically certified, chemicals, which really, like castor oil, they're only going to be naturally derived, have no chemical residue, and they're not going to affect, runoff or soil quality. So that it is pre approved by our certifier, and it won't degrade the environment.
Okay, so the rootstock is in the ground. And it's growing. How long is it there for? It's there for usually, two years is what we do our standard for, but if we do have trees that are smaller, which sometimes, with organic we will leave it there longer to ensure that our customer is going to get a good tree that they're going to be happy with and we'll be proud to present them.
Okay. Now, that's the rootstock. And as we know, with fruit trees, you also have scions. You've got the piece of the branch from the tree that produces the type of fruit that we want to be growing. And they're going to be grafted together. Does it matter? Where you're getting your scions from, does that have to be an organic orchard somewhere?
It does not have to be an organic orchard. It allows you to get through some hurdles if you do that. But if you treat the tree organically in the field, the certifier is going to allow, as long as you treat it for at least a month, the year organically, it'll become a certified organic tree. Oh, interesting.
Okay. So really, the priority is the root stock to be you make sure that is really organic. You're getting your science from wherever you're getting them.
[00:09:16] Listener Questions and Insights: Definition, Standards, and Health of Organically Grown Fruit Trees
You keep it in the ground by the time we have a question that just came in. But by the time, that tree comes out of the ground and it's being sent to me or somebody else who's going to plant it.
How old is that tree? Generally, the tree will be Two years old is what our standard is. It'll be two years old from us planting it to getting to you, but it may be older. Okay, so we've got some emails coming in. Michael writes from Inver Grove Heights. MN. Can you consider fruit from conventional fruit trees if they are grown organically from bare root planting?
in a sense, That's what he's asking. What I was wondering is, does it even matter where the scions are from? if that scion or the snippet of the branch from the orchard that has the fruit that, that's going to grow the fruit that you want could come from the most toxic orchard and it would, could still end up being an organic tree.
So I just want to confirm, is that correct, Taylor? Yep. It has to be treated organically by us. It also has to go through our certifier. So the certifier looks. And to where we're getting our fruit trees from, if any sort of red flags come up, while they're investigating that, then we will not be able to purchase from that person.
But for our standard, it is going to be, it has to be treated organically. And after a year, they say that it's not really a hazard at that point because it's passed a certain amount of time that it's needed in order for it to be considered organic. Gotcha. We got another email from John. I love this.
Thank you, John, for sending this. He says, Hello. Just wanted to say that I love Stark Brothers. Very interesting show, makes you think about organic, etc. Isn't that nice? yeah, okay.
we're now figuring out the process. You mentioned that when a fruit tree is not grown organically, there is more chemical inputs. Can you just describe to me a little bit more what those chemical inputs would be? The chemical inputs mostly are going to be pesticides, fertilizers and any sort of amendments that are going into the ground. So those are going to degrade the water sources. They're going to degrade the soil. And whenever you do things organically, you're going to find more natural components so that you can get the same results but without degrading the environment.
So you say the same results. Here in my mind's eye, I wonder to myself, if I'm to order an organic fruit tree, will it come to me smaller? Will it be smaller? Will it be, grow differently? with Stark Brothers, we have an across the board standard whenever we sell our bare roots. So a bare root is typically going to be three to four feet tall and or it's going to have a trunk that's three and eighth inches in diameter.
So that's going to be our standard across the board, whether you're purchasing organic or non organic, which is why with organic trees, we may let it sit in the field for a little bit longer, just so it can really get the growth that our customers are looking for and that we promise them.
[00:12:21] Challenges in Organic Fruit Tree Production
Now, how much competition is there out there for people that are actually growing certified organic fruit trees?
are there many companies that are doing that right now? I'm actually glad you asked that, because if you search online, if you do a quick search, you'll be able to find that your, fruit trees that are labeled as organic, are not certified by the USDA as organic. So in order to get a USDA organic certification, you have to have a certifier that inspects all of your methods, all of your production, and then you're going to have it certified by that certifier, which has to be recertified every year.
If you're really looking for something that is completely assured to be organic. It's going to be really hard to find that. And that makes Stark Brothers one of the only nurseries that offers organically certified trees by the USDA. And do you know who are the people that are most interested in ordering them?
Are they home growers? Or do you actually have people starting organic, commercial orchards that are saying, wow, this is a great way to start? A lot of our people are going to be home growers, so they may have a small orchard. And recently Stark Brothers has transitioned more from, commercial sales to home growers.
So that's really where our main market right now is. Oh really? So historically it was more commercial orchards that you sold to? Ah, interesting, okay. Now, back to commercial orchards. If, for instance, I'm going to start a big, I need to order 10, 000 trees for my big commercial orchard. Can I get away with ordering non organic fruit trees to start off with?
Will my orchard be able to be organic? If I don't start with organic fruit trees? yeah, typically, if you're going to be purchasing them bare root, that'll make it a lot easier for a company to be able to mass produce organic fruit trees. You'll have to work with your certifier very closely so that they can verify where you're getting your, bare root stock from.
And really, with organic, with at that level, there's a lot of challenges when it comes to treating your trees because of the manual labor that's included. But you are able to purchase, Large quantities commercially of fruit trees and then work with your certifier to ensure that you are indeed producing things organically.
Okay, so then it's possible. Now, I've got an email from Carolyn. I am excited about this program on organic origins. where are your stores located near Toronto or Orillia, Ontario? So we have, as you know, Taylor, listeners in both Canada and the States. basically, what Carolyn is asking is how she can get organic fruit trees from Stark Brothers in Canada.
unfortunately right now we can get our fruit trees to the border, but we can't get them across the border. So right now we're able to offer our hard goods to Canada, but we're not offered, able to offer any sort of live plants. But if you don't have any questions about being able to, produce her fruit trees organically, she's free to contact me and I'll give her certain guidelines for that.
Oh perfect, that would be great. So we'll make sure that Carolyn can reach out to you or she can, how can she find you? Yeah, she can email me, she can contact Stark Brothers, she can call the main office, or she can email me which I can provide you with to give to her. Okay, perfect, we'll do that. Great. So back to, let me just see what I've got here.
I've got this email here from Matthew. Let me read this. I work as an organic farm inspector, which includes large scale certified organic orchards. It's nearly impossible for them to source the quantity needed for replants. It's too bad because the conventional tree nursery industry could adapt changes to produce some percentage of organic trees, but they have not.
I personally know a few certified organic nursery tree growers, but they are smaller scale. Interesting point. It is an interesting point. Yeah. And I really, I think that organic really is the future when it comes to considering the health of the humans and the environment. So it would be cool to see that.
Sort of transition more to, be able to be used by commercial sellers. Yeah, and I think from what I understand as well, I've, been talking to people about this on Facebook, and it sounds like there are many nurseries out there, smaller nurseries, that are using organic principles. But you know what?
they just don't want to go through all the paperwork. So if they talk to their clients, they say, look, my stuff is quote unquote, organic. I just don't do the paperwork and things like that. I've got a message here from Kim, who has a nursery. There are studies out there on the increased resilience and health of nursery stock grown in living soil with a network of symbiotic mycorrhizae and beneficial bacteria.
In conventional nurseries, use of fungicides and fumigation destroy most of this life, which can lead to lower rates of transplant success and a weaker root system. That's interesting. And she says, yeah, one more comment. She says, also the application of nitrogen fertilizers can create a disproportionate canopy growth to the root system.
Okay. So basically what she's saying is essentially by organic, by ordering an organic fruit tree. organically grown fruit tree, you actually may get a healthier fruit tree. Yeah, I agree. It's like a, the natural selection process because I really do believe in nature and its resilience and, it responds really well to the environment.
Whenever we try to add any sort of amendments or pesticides or chemicals, it can disrupt that. And I also want to, that brings up a good point that I also was, looking into, and A lot of organic fruit trees, studies show that they have higher content of vitamin C and antioxidants, because whenever you use chemicals to keep away pests or fertilizers to promote growth, it doesn't allow the fruit tree to create the natural antioxidants that are there to deter certain insects.
So really, you get the higher antioxidants whenever you're using organic fruit. Yeah. So interesting. All these are interesting points. I want to know though, Taylor, why are you so passionate about this? Why is this something you care about so much? whenever it comes to me, I've really always been interested in nature and the preservation of nature.
And whenever we're working with agriculture, it seems like for a while, we didn't really consider how it affects the environment. We mostly focus on the human aspect. But now we're really looking at how it affects the environment and realizing that it is important to human aspects as well. I do appreciate in how, organic fruit trees do produce more jobs.
It allows for innovation whenever it comes to natural production. It tells people to think, outside the box and the way to include. All different sort of, natural production method, and I just really do care about the environment. I'm interested in how people are really starting to become more concerned about where they're getting their food from, how they're going to produce it, and just the whole big picture.
And I think that in order. To produce things organically, you really do have to consider all aspects. Yeah, I think so, and it's interesting that you say that in recent years, more and more of us are growing our own food, and we do care, and it's because we care. We care about our environment, we care about living sustainably, and so by, in a sense, when we close our eyes and say I don't really care how toxic the, the process of growing this tree was, I'm, I'll take care of it from now on, which is great, but it's just an extra thing that we can consider, an extra contribution.
oh, we got a little email from Karen, and she says, Hi, listening from Whitby, Ontario. Thanks for the information. Thank you, Karen. Oh, by the way, Gary gave a little note, and Gary in the studio. Our esteemed Gary was saying that people might be concerned that they won't be able to use their gift certificates since Starks Brothers can't ship plant material to Canada, but I assure you they can ship, what can you guys ship?
Books and tools and all sorts of good stuff, right? Yep, we can produce, we can ship hard goods, which are going to be our tools, certain fertilizers, other methods, so we have like tree starter kits, we have everything that you need when it comes to stakes, so everything that really isn't going to be a live plant, we can ship to Canada.
If you do want to make a purchase, you'll have to, call our main office and we'll be able to get you with a customer service representative to get that order fulfilled for you.
[00:21:07] Stark Brothers' History and Legacy
I am so interested, 200 years of fruit tree growing with Stark Brothers. I want to talk about the history. I have a secret passion about old fruit tree catalogs we're going to talk about. We got lots more to talk about, but can we take a few minutes to listen to a few commercials and then, are you okay, Taylor, holding on the line for a couple of minutes?
Yes, of course. Great. Okay. Wonderful. Thanks, everybody. Send us an email instudio101 at gmail. com. If you want to contribute, get involved, maybe win a prize and say hi. In the meantime, you're listening to the Urban Forestry Radio Show and Podcast. Brought to you by Stark Brothers Nursery and Orchards. This is Reality Radio 101, and I'm Susan Poizner, author of the fruit tree care book, Growing Urban Orchards, and we will be back right after this little break.
Stark Brothers is primarily a direct to consumer marketer of fruit trees, berry plants, nut trees. We do this on a national basis. We're the largest as far as what we do, and we've been doing it for 200 years. Company started in 1816 when James Hart Stark brought his family and a satchel full of apple scions across the Mississippi River.
settled here in what is now Louisiana, Missouri. The big first apple for Stark Brothers was the Red Delicious Apple, and it started in 1893. And then 20 years later, in 1914, the Golden Delicious Apple was mailed to the facility here. Two thirds of all the apples eaten in the world today are cousins of these two apples.
Essentially, they have the DNA of the Red Delicious or Golden Delicious Apple in their DNA. We have about eight acres of warehouses, and we have between 350 and 400 acres of field production going on every year, which is split into two crops. The crop you're budding and the crop you're selling. We have about five acres of greenhouses.
We offer a wide variety of product. We're growing woody fruit trees, small fruits, raspberries, blueberries, knockout roses, kiwis. There's always a new product coming out or a new technique. E commerce has changed our business model completely and we recognize we're open 24 7 and the customer wants their merchandise faster and sooner than they ever have.
What works well with us is that one, we're centrally located, that 75 percent of our customer base is within two days time in transit. We'll send an email on a Monday, and if you place your order today or tomorrow, you'll be planting this weekend. Stark Brothers Nurseries and Orchards. Learn more. at starkbros.
com.
Welcome back to the Urban Forestry Radio Show with your host, Susan Poizner, right here on Reality Radio 101. To get on board, send us an email right now. Our email address is InStudio101@gmail. com.
And now, right back to your host of the Urban Forestry Radio Show, Susan Poizner. You're listening to the Urban Forestry Radio Show and podcast brought to you by Stark Brothers Nursery and Orchards. This is Reality Radio 101 and I'm your host, Susan Poizner. In this show, we talk about fruit trees, food forests, permaculture, and arboriculture, and I'm so happy that you've tuned in today.
Now, today on my show, my guest is Taylor Ingram of Stark Brothers Nursery and Orchards, and we're chatting about organically grown fruit trees. In years past, these organically grown trees were pretty hard to find, but this year Stark Brothers has introduced a line of organic fruit trees. Now, in this part of the show, I want to learn about that, but I also want to learn about other trends in fruit tree growing over the last two centuries.
Two centuries. That's because Stark Brothers has been operating for exactly that long. Before we start chatting again, I'd love to hear from you. Is buying organically grown fruit trees important to you? Or do you have any questions or comments for Taylor? Email us at instudio101 at gmail. com.
Taylor, let's go back in time right now. Who started Stark Brothers? I'm guessing it's a couple of brothers called Stark, but who knows? And when was that and how did it all unfold? Yep. as you mentioned, we're a 203 year old company, so I could really take up most of the podcast talking about our history alone, but just for the listeners, I'm going to try to shorten it down for you.
in 1816, our company was founded by James Hart Stark. He had just finished, his military service for the 1812 War, and he was migrating from Kentucky to the Missouri area. And interestingly, Missouri wasn't even a state yet. So that's really how old we are. he traveled here with a saddlebag with scions from his father's orchard, and he started the company in a field that's not very far from our corporate offices today.
Following him, there were six generations of Starks that ran the company. and it wasn't until the mid 1800s that we had our first, Stark Brothers that ran the company together. That's where you get our names from. So it wasn't called Stark Brothers in the beginning. It was called Mr. Stark's Company or something.
Yep. Was it really? What was the original name? it was just Stark's Orchard. Stark's Orchard is what it was.
[00:26:36] The Stark Brothers' Early Years
Okay, so what year did the brothers What year did the brothers partner up? It was, I think, 1846. It was in the mid 1800s. continued to, there was a history of family brothers that ran it together until 1994.
So we really had the family business from 1816 to 1994 between the Starks, and that was really interesting for us. So can you just create a picture for me? Who would the first, back in 1816, who would the buyers have been, your first buyers? Our first buyers were really people who were interested in growing food for their family.
Back 200 years ago, almost all apple trees were produced by seed. Whenever you're growing things by seed, it's hard to prove that it's true to parent because you can't control the pollinating species. So like bees, if you have a honeycrisp tree next to a gala tree, you can't really control whether the bees are going to be pollinating the honeycrisp with the gala or vice versa.
[00:27:34] Grafting and True-to-Parent Trees
But James Stark was really good at grafting. And whenever you graft a tree, you're creating a genetic clone. So you can really verify and ensure their customer that you're producing that true to parent tree. So people were really coming from all over. It wasn't just local to get these sort of trees that are just really true to name so they could grow it for their own family.
So from the earliest days, he was selling grafted trees while other people might have been selling seedlings or seeds. Yep, and that really made us, stand out as a company because people, they didn't have supermarkets back then, so they really did care about the quality and the type of trees that they were growing.
let's go back to that in a minute.
[00:28:13] Modern-Day Stark Brothers
We've got a few emails. One is from Anthony in Baltimore. Anthony says, Hello, great to hear about this resource. Does Stark Brothers produce regional native plants for a grower who wants to grow plants that are native to the grower's region? For example, plants native to the mid Atlantic region of the U.
S. Good question. We do grow plants that are native to our area. So we have Black-Eyed Susans, New England Asters. We have a few others too. They're gonna be flowering plants, so not necessarily fruiting, but we do have a variety of other plants such as gooseberries and blueberries and blackberries that are going to be compatible for certain zones.
But when it comes to native species, they're mostly gonna be flowering. And for, Central, our area, so the Midwest. Okay. let's see. John has a question. John says, If you had to grow one or two varieties of apple trees organically, what might they be?
I know from experience that some of the heritage varieties of apples are easier to grow organically. Baldwin and winter banana are two of these that I have grown. Thanks, John. Wow. Really good question.
[00:29:24] Organic Growing Challenges and Solutions
So what he's basically saying is that, growing organically, you're not using those pesticides and fungicides.
So you're going to have more challenges. Are some cultivars easier than others? What do you think? yeah, we do have, we have pretty good success with our crab apple, our Whitney crab apple. And also we have noticed that. We haven't yet produced or released our, Cox's Orange Pippin Antique, but it is a heritage, and it does really well in our environment.
So we're looking to include that to our organic sales as well. Okay, that sounds good. Okay, we got one from Barb in Seattle. Hi Susan, I'm really enjoying this show. I manage and care for public apple trees in Seattle. Organic care only. No sprays of any kind. Has Stark Brothers seen any evidence of improved resistance to disease from organically grown trees?
I'm thinking in particular of fungal and bacterial diseases. What do you think? Yeah. I really do believe so. Whenever, one of the main things for that is going to be our cover crops. So we have a cover crop that is a native clover type and that does put, puts nitrogen into the soil and also reduces any sort of weeds that would be in competition with the trees as well.
From that, we do have a more soil control. We have healthier soil. We have the nutrients that are supposed to be in the soil and that's a really important factor when it comes to controlling. any sort of problems that you'll have with your crops in the field. And, if there are any scientists listening to the show, hey, what a great thing to study.
That would be an interesting thing, because again, from Kim, who has a nursery, who I read a question from earlier, she says there are studies out there on the increased resilience and health of nursery grown stock living in soil with symbiotic mycorrhizae, blah, blah, blah. So basically, she's, saying there is evidence out there.
I would love to see that. That would be very interesting to see. Okay. Yeah.
[00:31:23] Historical Trends in Apple Cultivars
now, we're going to go back in time again. We came back to today, and let's go back in time again. the first clients were people who bought Stark Brothers stuff in 1816, would have been people who want grafted trees. Would they have been I guess, were there home growers in those days?
Or was everybody a farmer? Did people, even live in cities? I don't know, in 1816. Yeah, they were mostly going to be home growers. The people that were trying to feed their family with the produce that they were growing themselves. Because we didn't have supermarkets back then, it was really important to our customers and to the people who were purchasing a plant to be able to produce something that would be able to survive certain hardiness.
And also another important thing for people who are purchasing back there was the keeping time. We didn't have refrigerators back in time, so they only had fruit sellers which were moderately cold. So that was a really important thing when they were choosing rootstocks and scions and any sort of bare root trees.
Now as far as back to those earliest days, did they have those, an official catalog? I absolutely adore old fruit tree and seed catalogs. I think they're beautiful. They always are have these beautiful color outsides or designs and stuff. So what do you guys have? Can you look back in time by looking through old catalogs?
Yeah, it's pretty cool. We actually have been producing catalogs for a really long time and we have almost an entire Our archive of our oldest catalogs, we're just missing just a few. the old catalogs had a lot of beautiful drawings of all of our plants and all the things that we offered them, but today people prefer photos over drawings, and personally I would love to have the, drawings, And if you were to look, sorry, go ahead. No, that's okay. I was going to say, if you were to look back in time, is there a changing interest in what trees, like what is popular at that time? Like in the earliest years, what were the most popular cultivars? And then over time, did you, would you guys have seen ups and downs with different cultivars?
And if so, which ones? Yeah, there's definitely been different trends. so back in the day, we, really prominent ones were going to be the Ben Davis and the Cork, Cox's Orange Pippin trees, which are considered our heritage, which are really starting to sell more now because they're heirlooms, but we had also Dwarfing Rootstocks, which were first introduced and people were really excited to be able to get those because they could grow them in small spaces and the fruit trees would stay relatively small.
What year would that have been for the Dwarfing Rootstocks? I think that was the 80s is whenever we really started. Okay. and then I started selling them. Okay. Yeah. So go ahead. Sorry. You were saying? No, that's fine. But, so back in the day, really the main thing that people were concerned about was going to be the color and the taste.
And interestingly, our golden delicious, apple was very hard to sell at first because people saw its pale color and they thought that it wouldn't, that there was something wrong with it. It wasn't a good apple, but its taste really started to speak for itself and gave people, What they wanted when it comes to taste.
And like I said earlier, the keeping ability was what was really the main concern because people didn't have a way to refrigerate their live plants or their rootstocks or scions. And now what people are really concerned about is going to be cold hardiness. These resistant pest resistant crops and that's really taken the place of the old ones in the past.
Interesting. I wonder if there are any cultivars. I went a few years ago to Monticello and so they have very beautiful old historic Thomas Jefferson's, property and historic orchards and stuff. And some of the trees that he grew in those days don't even cultivars, they don't even exist anymore.
Are there any cultivars from early, Stark Brothers catalogs or Stark's catalogs that don't even exist or nobody can get access to anymore? there are a few that we haven't been able to get. That don't really exist anymore, but a lot of them have been introduced through and so they have common ancestors So you'll be able to find their DNA and the ones that are existing today But there are some that aren't available anymore due to customer demand.
Yeah, they just get lost over time Doesn't mean that they weren't good either, right? It just means that they just got lost Okay, we've got an email from Bev She titles it poor draining soil. Hi Bev from Smithfield on Smithfield, Ontario. What fruit tree would you recommend for poor draining soil?
So for a poor draining soil, a lot of times if you want, our peaches are usually better for poor draining soil just because of, how they pick up the soil and everything. So we have a lot of different things that you can find when it comes to zone compatibility because our soil really is an important thing.
So peaches are going to be a good one for that one. Okay, peaches. And are there other edible plants? I know for myself, with swampy soil or whatever, I suggest maybe people, maybe fruit trees aren't the right thing. Are there any other edibles that might thrive in poor draining soil? yeah, cranberries are going to be a very good one for that.
Blueberries as well. Those also can be grown organically. They really do prefer the sort of loamy soil and high acidity, too, which usually comes with loamy, or the poor draining soil as well. So it's about creative thinking, really, and thinking, okay, I always look at a space and think, what, does this space want to grow?
What does this soil want to grow for me? Rather than saying, I want to grow this, and I'm going to stick it here. to get there, so it's looking at that soil and looking at the garden. If it's shady, maybe it wasn't meant for a fruit tree, but, but yeah, good question.
[00:37:11] Advice for Home Growers
Being in business for so long, I'm sure that you guys have seen a lot in terms of common things like advice that people need in order to grow their fruit trees and fruiting plants and other plants successfully.
I know myself, there's mistakes I have made over and over again. And so in my book, in my online course, I'm teaching people how to not make those mistakes. Taylor, can we, let's talk a little bit about advice for growers and if any of the listeners have questions for you. You also, in addition to fruit trees, what is, you specialize also in some greenhouse stuff too.
What kind of things do you grow in the greenhouse? what I'm going to be growing in the greenhouse is mostly going to be small fruiting plants. So that'll include blackberries, goji berries, blueberries, strawberries, citrus even, bananas. So we really have all the things whenever it comes to tropical or moderate.
Okay, so if people have questions about those things, then we'll have time to ask them and we'll talk about, common mistakes, great advice.
Taylor, nurseries do work hard to grow healthy fruit trees to provide to us, the consumers, but once you send them out to the client, what suggestions can you make to ensure that those fruit trees continue to thrive?
first off, I think people really need to pay attention to what zone they live in because your zone depends on the sort of the long the longevity of the winters that you're facing and also the soil content. So if you get that zone part taken care of, it's really going to make growing your fruit trees a lot easier for you.
People also need to know how to properly prune and thin their trees. If they don't do that, then it could also their fruit trees could drop their fruit, or they could produce much smaller fruit than what they want people also, I think, need to really consider they have a lot of different, rotations when it comes to treating their trees.
So you have systemic rotations for, pesticides, which can be, which they do have organically organic products as well. So they're systemic, which is taken up by the tree. And then the tree itself is producing certain toxins that are bad for the pest. So the pest won't be able to attack that tree. You have other ones that would be more topical.
So it'll be a foliage treatment. And you really need to control the rotations between that. If you really want the best, Okay. Okay, I want to dig into that for a second, because rotations, as soon as you say that, I think in terms of my vegetable garden, I don't want to plant tomatoes in the same place every year, but hey, I'm not moving my fruit tree.
Once it's in the ground, I don't move it. So what exactly, explain to me further, what do you mean by rotations?
[00:39:45] Organic Pest Control and Fertilization
Oh, by rotations what you're going to be applying as a treatment to the plant. So you have to have rotations between certain plants. So let's say this week you have, you're using something that is good for preventing fungi, whether it's going to be a soil amendment.
which is systemic to the plant, or if it's going to be a topical. So you have to pay attention to how you're rotating your, applications to your plant, because some will also have certain, interactions between different treatments, and you want to avoid those interactions, not overwhelm your plant while still getting the best uptake for your plant to be the healthiest.
Okay, so let's do a concrete example. Okay, for me, for instance, with our fruit trees in our local park, let's say this year I mulch them with composted manure. And next week, next year, I'm going to mulch them with compost. Is that what you're talking about in terms of rotations? give me a concrete example.
Yeah, it's going to be something like that, or even with micorrhizal fungi. You want to make sure that you're adding micorrhizal fungi, and then you also want to make sure that you're having a cover crop such as clover, which is a legume and produces nitrogen for the soil. So you don't want to overload the soil at one time, and you want to make sure that the micorrhizal fungi, which attaches to the plant and the plant roots, and it allows for more uptake of the nutrients. So you don't want there to be too much competition in the soil, and you want it to be best for the plant. We have a question here from Mark. Thanks for asking this. He says, what kind of organic fertilizer do you recommend?
Organic fertilizer, really what's good, is something that does have a mycorrhizal factor to it. And there's algal fertilizer, which it has the components of algae. Algae is one of the fastest growing organisms on earth. And it uses those sort of factors that's in the algae to be applied to your plant.
And the plant will then also create really strong roots. And whenever a plant has strong roots, it's going to see it above ground as well. Interesting. Okay. What about, oh, here I've got a question from Joanna from Pennsylvania. She says, what a great team both of you are. Very appreciative that both of you are willing to help a backyard grower.
Thank you. Thank you so much. Okay, Joanna's question. I understand snakes love fruit trees. How can you keep them out and off? I do not like snakes. Please help. Oh my goodness. We don't have a lot of those in Toronto, so tell me about your experience in that, Taylor.
Yeah, so if you're wanting to solve the snake problem organically, you can have, nesting areas. So you can have nesting areas for natural predators of snakes. So that'd be hawks or owls, you can create a nesting area. Also you can create a certain feed area for them. Barn owls are really good, too, and you can have, empty, locations for them to be able to That they'll find a suitable habitat, and then you'll have more in the area that will produce not only snakes, but also rabbits in the area.
I love that you said that. I've got to say, a few years ago, we had a ban on toxic, the use of toxic sprays in gardens and public spaces in our city. Before that, we didn't really have any hawks here. And after a few years, the hawks reappeared. which is quite amazing. so it just goes to show back to that organic conversation that in order to create an environment where everything can thrive, the more natural, the better, like those hawks would then, I guess they eat the snakes.
I don't know. They attack them at least. And a great way to protect your fruit trees and yourself. Yeah, I really agree. Like the biodiversity is a huge factor when it comes to growing organic and really the entire environment, including your organic fruit trees, are going to benefit from it.
[00:43:34] Listener Questions and Final Thoughts: How to Increase Fruit Production
Okay, we've got another question from Carolyn.
So this is maybe our last or second last question. I have another question. I know I am in a Zone 5 growing area. I planted some apple trees about 10 years ago, and these trees are about 8 to 10 feet high. There are many flowers. But only one or two apples per tree. What can I do to change this? I do fertilize them.
So that's from Carolyn. Yeah. Yeah, if she doesn't have, if she has a lot of flowers, it could be a couple of things. It might be that she doesn't have enough pollinators in the area. She could have more, if she wants to plant some clover around the area, it would Recruit more pollinators to the area, which will also visit her apple tree.
Pruning is also going to be an important thing whenever it comes to, producing apples. So you want to be able to thin out the tree and prune it properly, and then it'll allow more nutrients to go to the apples. And you'll have larger apples and more apples than what you would previously see. I, the question reminds me, I teach sometimes in person classes and I taught, I think, last year a class with a group here called Not Far From the Tree.
And it was a four part class and I'm teaching people in general how to care for their fruit trees, similar to what I teach online, a holistic approach. How do you feed them? How do you prune them? So a woman attended and she was growing a cherry tree and for five years or something she had no cherries.
And she sent an email to the organization afterwards to say, thank you, so much for that course. I did everything Susan told me to do. i. e. she started to take hands on care of her trees, and she said, and this year I had lots of fruit. So it just goes to show it's not always one thing, it's just that general fruit tree care routine, doing all the things that your tree needs, just like a baby.
The baby needs to be loved, and it needs to be fed, and it needs water, and all the different things. It's interesting that, I think you would agree that it's the big picture and how to care for your trees. Yep. It's always a learning process and it's really rewarding once you have it figured out and how to take care of it.
Absolutely. There's nothing so lovely as a fruit tree. To me, they represent hope and love and everything good in the world.
I just want to ask you, we've, talked about so much in the show today, Taylor. Tell me, if there was one thing you wanted to tell the listeners about growing fruit trees, about organics, what would it be? You've got your podium right now to talk to all of us. Tell us what will make a difference in our fruit tree growing journey.
I think whenever you're growing a fruit tree, as I said earlier, you really need to consider your zone. And if you are going to be thinking organically, you really need to be considering all the different factors. Whenever it comes to pruning, whenever it comes to your zone fertilizing, it is challenging at first.
Whenever you're doing organic, you might have smaller fruit, but you are going to have more nutritious fruit, but you really need to keep with it because it is important for the environment. It's important for human health. It's important for biodiversity, and it really is a rewarding process. You shouldn't be discouraged by any sort of problems you have at the beginning because In the end, it's a really good thing for the environment, for the people, and it's rewarding.
Oh, I totally agree. and for me, I think my thing is that, it's so funny, I would say, It's not about us. It's about the tree. I know so many people you plant your tree and it's about you. It's about me It's like I want the fruit I want the organic fruit and I want lots of it and I want it to be perfect And if instead we start to think how can I make my trees experience more positive. how can I make my tree healthier? How can I make sure it has everything it needs? And then it just automatically kicks in to give back mode, then it starts to give back to us. Do you think so? Oh yeah, I definitely agree. I think growing fruit trees can be humbling.
You have to be able to admit what you don't know and take it from a different perspective. always researching, always knowing that there's something you don't know that. should know. And it really is a great experience. Oh, absolutely.
So Taylor, thank you so much for coming on the show today to share your knowledge with us and to talk to us and to inspire us.
thank you so much for the opportunity. Okay. Goodbye for now. We'll talk soon. All right. Bye. Bye bye.
[00:48:05] Conclusion and Farewell
That was Taylor Ingram, Organic Specialist from Stark Brothers Nursery. And that's it for today's episode of the Urban Forestry Radio Show.
I really hope you enjoyed the show and if you want to listen again or download other episodes, you can find them all at orchardpeople. com slash podcast. And if you're ready to up your fruit tree care game, Check out my online fruit tree care training course. My students include home growers, arborists, master gardeners, and others.
You can learn about it at orchardpeople. com slash workshops. You've been listening to the Urban Forestry Radio Show brought to you by Stark Brothers Nurseries and Orchards. This is Reality Radio 101, and I'm Susan Poizner from the fruit tree care training website, OrchardPeople. com. Thank you so much for tuning in, and I look forward to digging into a new fruit tree care topic with you next month.
You've been listening to the Urban Forestry Radio Show on Reality Radio 101. To learn more about the show and to download the podcast where I cover lots more great topics, you can visit OrchardPeople. com. This show is broadcast live on the last Tuesday of every month, and each time I have great new guests talking to me about fruit trees, food forests, and arboriculture.
If you're interested in learning more about growing your own fruit trees, or just about living a more sustainable life. Go to OrchardPeople. com and sign up for my information packed monthly newsletter. If you like this show, please do like our Orchard People Facebook page. Thank you so much for tuning in. It's been wonderful to have you as a listener. And I hope to see you again next time.
Thank you for listening to the Urban Forestry Radio Show with your host Susan Poizner, right here on Reality Radio 101.