Orchard People

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[00:01:06] Welcome to the Urban Forestry Radio Show
Welcome to the Urban Forestry Radio Show, here on Reality Radio 101. In this radio show and podcast, we learn about fruit trees, permaculture, aboriculture, and so much more. So if you love trees and especially fruit trees, or if you're interested in living a more sustainable life, then this is the place for you.
I'm your host, Susan Poizner of the fruit tree care training website, orchardpeople. com. Thanks for tuning in. And enjoy the show.
Welcome to the Urban Forestry Radio Show with your host, Susan Poizner. To contact Susan live right now, send her an email instudio101@gmail. com.
Hi everyone.
[00:02:16] The Autumn Olive Dilemma
There are some edible plants that you really want in your community. It's great to grow fruit trees that can produce apples, or plums, or oranges, or lemons. But there are some plants that are somewhat less desirable, and one of them might be the autumn olive. the thing about autumn olives is that they actually produce a really delicious and nutritious fruit.
So why don't we want them around? autumn olives are invasive plants here in North America. They spread like gangbusters and take over large areas, bullying out more of our native plants and trees. what is the solution?
[00:03:00] Guest Introduction: Dustin Kelly
My guest today on this pre recorded episode of the Urban Forestry Radio Show and Podcast is Dustin Kelly.
And his belief is that we can solve the autumn olive problem By eating the fruit, making it into jams, jellies, and fruit leathers, and he's going to tell us all about it. Now, if this show sounds a little different, it's because it's being recorded in Illinois, the state where Dustin Kelly works his autumn olive magic.
Dustin, thank you for coming on the show today. Thank you.
[00:03:31] History and Spread of Autumn Olive
tell me a little bit about autumn olives. Is it a plant? Is it a tree? What is this thing? it's a shrub. It's a, it can grow up to about 14, 15 feet tall and spread wide up to about a 20 foot canopy. It's a intentionally introduced exotic species from Asia.
I'm not exactly sure when it came over. Some records show in the 1880s, as early as that. Others say the 1930s and 40s. What we do know is that through the 50s, 60s, and 70s, there was a campaign of heavily planting, and growing, and spreading the species. The scientists, the conservationists of that era thought that this would be a good plant to have all across the Midwest and the Northeast.
They planted it for conservation purposes, to create places where birds and wildlife would flock to. They planted it for windbreaks, and after a mine was created, they would plant these trees to basically bring it back to green. So that the rocky soil would not erode into the riverways, but instead would be held by the roots of the autumn olive.
And the great thing is it worked. It worked all across the country. The trees did what they should have. But what they shouldn't have done was kept on spreading. The trees spread have a lot of fruit that the birds love to eat. And when they spread it, it creates a new tree. a genetically different tree, and with enough of those spreading, soon they became adapted to North American climate, soils, and were able to spread by themselves.
So with that, they got the exotic categorization, and since then there's been basically a war against this species. why? what's such a bad thing? They're a plant, they're feeding the birds, they, as we'll discuss, they provide nutritious fruit. Why is this such a bad thing? Why are people making a fuss?
[00:05:20] Challenges and Solutions
One problem is that they can crowd out other species. Once they get into an area, they're very good at spreading wide, covering the ground, dissuading other plants from emerging. Another thing is that they don't really provide much leaf fodder for insects. They do provide a lot of nectar for insects like bees and they provide a lot of that, but they don't feed, they don't provide a food for insects to eat.
another problem is that they don't provide an economic source. Since people don't tend to make money off of these plants, then since they're there taking up space, they aren't appreciated. So that's where we come in is, if there's an economic value to these, then we can, then that removes one problem.
Is it showing up in parks? Is it showing, where do we find it? It doesn't grow where it's mowed. So when you mow, there's no problem, but if you have a prairie preserve, and it's newly emerging then, and there's Autumn berries nearby, they might, they may infiltrate. They may come in and they might start to spread.
Okay, so, what states will you find it in? Do you find it in Canada? You do. Oh, do we really? You do. You find it in southern Canada. you find it in Toronto area. You find it in, You find it around the Great Lakes. Around the Great Lakes. And in what states in the United States? How far? What's the spread?
So all along the Great Lakes. Michigan, Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, down to Kentucky, Tennessee. Wow. okay. Now you are Dustin. You are out in the world. When did you get involved in figuring out that you're passionate about these plants? And what they offer us. I always loved being out in nature, learning about wild edibles, learning about the different plants and what you could use.
And when I came here to Illinois from Texas, There was a big beautiful forest that I could wander through and as I walked through this forest for a few years I noticed all these fruit and I people told me that you couldn't eat them But then when I looked it up, I found out wait a second They're completely non toxic and the USDA has been done studies on them to show that they are nutritious Edible and possibly a good cash crop There's actually a study out there by the USDA called autumn olive cash crop and It shows how they took this autumn olives.
They planted them in Maine on a few acres They harvested them with a Korvan 9000 blueberry harvester And they found that you could get quite a bit of fruit from a small acre okay, you discover these plants. Now, also, what do they look like and what do these autumn olives look like? Like, when I think in terms of olives, I think of green or black, from the Mediterranean.
Is it anything like an olive? one thing to know is that the autumn olive is not related to olives. The tree happens to look like an olive tree. It grows short and wide, and the leaves are silver. So if you've ever been in the Mediterranean and seen a lot of olive trees, or in California, that's about what they look like.
They're shimmering, silvery leaves. And when you get up close and look at the leaf, you'll see the underside is even more silver and has almost like a sparkly, speckle fleck to it. You can scrape it off with your fingernails to get the fleck off. And then the berries are very small, much smaller than any olive you would eat or buy.
they're only about the size of a pea or a little bit larger. And what color are they? Red. So they go when they ripen, they're red. That's right. They go from green to yellow and then bright red with speckles also. so you're here in Illinois and you discover this plant. Where do you go from there? I first thought that this is a product that people would like because here I am with access to thousands of pounds of fruit on these acres For free.
For free that people are happy to have. In wildlife areas. Exactly. Yeah, so you can get all this fruit. That is untouched, no pesticides, no herbicides, and I thought I could make a small business. I could make enough to make my own jam and maybe sell to an ice cream shop, maybe sell to a brewery. And I thought, wow, here I am in one little county in one state of the whole of North America and this exists all across the country.
So people could do this in all different places. There's no farms of this, but there are wild plantations all across the country and Canada. So why not let people know about it and just see if everybody picks it up. Okay. You then, you went for it. You went for it. You said, okay, I'm gonna give it a try.
[00:10:04] Harvesting and Processing Autumn Olives
How did you harvest this fruit?
When did you harvest it? And what do you do with it? Did you make it into jams? I did. I found that through a few trials, I found first by using a sort of a berry rake. It didn't work so well. It's a little bit slow and the rake will break. I tried hitting it with poles, and on letting the berries fall onto a tarp, and that worked pretty well.
But what works best of all, and the fastest, is to cut branches. So when you have a whole lot of trees, and you can spare cutting back the branches, because that will impact the following year's harvest, you can cut a whole big branch that's full of berries. and then hold it over a tarp or over what I call my berry catcher.
It's a slanted tarp on poles that will let the berries roll down into your bucket that has a bag liner in it. So what we did is we found by doing that we could get about 15 pounds per man hour. So if I'm out with four guys, then I could get 60 pounds in an hour. And throughout a whole day, with eight guys, I could go home with 500 to 600 pounds of fruit.
And by doing that for about a week, pretty soon I've stored up about 2, 000, 4, 000, 5, 000 pounds of fruit. The best way to store it, we found, was to freeze it as quick as possible after removing the leaves, the twigs, and anything else in there. We do that with either water, by dunking it in water, letting the berries sink, and moving, removing the top, or by blowing off everything with a blueberry winnower.
It's about a 4 or 5 thousand dollar machine that you can get. From, you can get it used from blueberry growers. There's a great website called usedblueberryequipment. com where my guy Wyatt will sell you a blueberry winnower. after we've gotten everything off of it, we put it into buckets and freeze it. And from there, the next step is a puree.
Each fruit has a single seed inside. The seed is non toxic, it's not bitter, it has a pleasant taste, but it is very fibrous. So you can put five or ten berries into your mouth, and just chomp. And pretty soon, all the fruit has gone through your mouth, and you've swallowed the fruit, but you're left with a big wad of seed, like chewing gum.
So that's why it doesn't really make a grocery store fruit as well as blueberries. You can eat ten blueberries and there's nothing left, but you eat ten autumn berries and you've got a wad of gum. Which you could swallow, or you could spit it out, but those are your options. Our other option is remove the seed with a pulper finisher, or a food processor, or a food mill, or something else.
And once you've done that, then you've got a lumpy puree, and the lumpy puree can be made into anything you would make. a strawberry puree with. You can make cupcakes. You can make, ice cream frosting. You can make ice cream. You can make mead. You can ferment it into a wine. you can make jam, or fruit leathers.
my, for myself, I really wanted to approach it from an artisan, craftsman, small batch processed food product. A healthy food product. Because that's where I feel Autumnberry as a superfood, a domestically grown superfood, can really So I started to make jams, and pretty soon we found that it works very well with spiciness.
Because autumn berries have something, in common with tomatoes. Autumn berries have a lot of lycopene. And tomatoes have a lot of lycopene. most lycopene supplements come from tomatoes. Autumn berries have 17 times as much lycopene as tomatoes. So when you're tasting tomatoes, you're tasting tomato fruit, but you're also tasting lycopene.
And when you eat autumn berries, and especially autumn berry puree, you get a lot of that lycopene flavor. So like tomatoes, which work well in a salsa with peppers, autumn berry jam works very well with that. jalapeños, habaneros, any kind of pepper. Wow. Okay.
Is it more of a jam or a salsa kind of thing that you're making it into? the spicy jam is salsa sweet. The original jam, we basically use the same level of sweetness for all three of our jams. We use a standard amount of, because in order to make a jam work, the pectin has to have the sugar. It has to combine there in order to tie up the water and make it into a shelf stable jam.
if you wanted to do a sugar free jam, I would look into chia. Because if you take just any amount of fruit, even sourish fruit, that has a very low sugar amount, you can add chia seeds, and it will tie up the water also. And then you can put it into the fridge. It won't be shelf stable unless you do a certain process to it.
Then you could add stevia, you could add agave, you could add any of your Any sweetener that you're interested in, or no sweetener at all, just to make a fruit spread. Wow. So let's go back to your story. You have learned, and we talked a little bit about the first part, in the first part of the show, you learned how to harvest large amounts of this stuff.
You learned that you needed to freeze it quickly in order to keep it fresh, keep the nutrients, and you learned some recipes to cook it into some jams. Did you, when did you start to sell it? I have this image of you with a huge freezer full of this stuff. Maybe making some jams and what do I do with this stuff?
Where did you take it from there?
[00:15:24] Business and Market Insights
We took them to the farmer's market. Our town has a wonderful farmer's market in Champaign Urbana. It's called market at the square. I think it has about 25 or 30 years of history in the same location. And it's a great place for. producer, vendors. the first year we only got about 300.
So that fit in a chest freezer without much trouble. And we made our own jams. We got it. We got some recipes. We got jars. We got pectin at the grocery store and we just started whipping it together. we saw that there was another jam maker at the market who was making pineapple habanero and strawberry and blueberry lavender and all these exciting combination flavors.
And he knew of autumn olives and had actually harvested autumn olives before. So we said, hey, would you be interested in making us a small batch? I think your jam might be better than ours. And he was fine. He loved it. So we gave him the fruit, paid him for the processing, and that was our first work with a vendor, with a co packer.
Now, financially, was it profitable? it's great that you can get the autumn olives for free out in nature. But you have to pay him to make your jam. were you making any money at all in the beginning? Yeah, I can. How much did the jam sell for? Jam sells for about five or six dollars. Okay. Yeah.
And the fruit, when we figured out on a small scale, the cost is pretty negligible. It's you getting out there and, picking some berries, put it in the freezer. But at a little bit larger, when you start to hire people, then there's a real cost. It's no longer, it's no longer free. So we like to pay, 10 an hour, a little more than, you know, minimum wage, and people are happy to get out there and spend days out in the sunshine, out in the shade of the autumn olive forest, doing something they've never done before.
And what we found at 15 pounds per hour or 10 pounds per hour, anywhere in there, it would cost us about 2 per pound. So to do a medium to large sized harvest, it's going to cost about 2 per pound to put the berries in the freezer. Then from there to process them. our co packer, our current co packer is about a dollar per jar.
So when you send him a thousand pounds and he makes a hundred cases, he's charging me about twelve dollars per case. And that's a case of twelve jars, eleven ounces per jar. So now I've got two dollars of fruit, but each jar only takes about a half a pound of fruit. So that's about a dollar of fruit in each jar.
A dollar for the A dollar for the jar and the packing, and then the label's about 30 cents. That's, expensive. So you're getting 5 and you're spending 2. 50. 2. 50. Yeah. Perfect. Okay.
[00:18:18] Future Prospects and Partnerships
When did you form your company? What is your company called? Our company's called Autumnberry Inspired.
Because really my hope was that it, this would be the first of its kind and it would inspire a widespread use of this fruit. I really wanted to create a cooperative would be the best. To find a network of growers who would be interested in supplying the fruit. To create one centralized brand with good label, good logo, good website that other growers would be interested in using, and borrowing or paying for.
Either way, it, I knew that if I just stayed one person doing it by myself, then it wouldn't really survive. But if ten people across the country, or across also Canada, picked it up and said, wow, I've got this hundred acres in my back. Grandma has a hundred acres in her back. My neighbor has a hundred acres in his back.
And he doesn't want them. He doesn't like them. And when I go over there and harvest them, I give that farmer, my neighbor, a smaller population. I give him lanes through his population. I give him little patches of green areas inside of his jungle that he can then utilize. So I want to clarify here. When people are harvesting, they're cutting off branches.
Yes. Which means they're actually slowing down the growth of these invasive plants. So you're not telling people, hey, go plant these in your garden. You don't necessarily want that to happen, but if you happen to have them You know, a local person will come in, cut some paths through, cut off some branches, take away the fruit and use it.
So you're helping the land, the homeowner, or the person with the acreage of the plant that it doesn't want in the back, and you are, and you and your colleagues are going to be earning a good living from it and using the fruit. So essentially you're conquering the autumn olive by eating it. That's right. We said if we can't beat it, let's eat it. If we can't beat it. Let's eat it. I love that makes so much sense Okay, so to reinforce what we just said I would explicitly say don't plant this in your yard Because if you do plant this in yard There's a good chance, it's documented, that it might show up in your neighbor's yards, it might show up in the back area of the school or the prairie nearby, and you would be to blame.
we always want to avoid planting small portions of this, or large acreage. I believe in my heart that you could plant in a greenhouse, or you could plant it and cover it, but overall, those costs are just not going to be worth it. Plus, in most states in the United States, it's illegal to plant the species.
we avoid doing that, and we want to educate people that planting and spreading this species is not the way to go. Instead, we should look at the populations that will be there and consume them. Now we're talking about, you said, cutting paths into these properties where there are a lot of autumn olives.
Is there something you would plant there instead? Is there a way that we can actually conquer that space or reclaim it for nature? I would have plants. It's all in the theoretical stage right now. I've been working at it some to try to beat it back. I think a good ground cover. would be a good start, something that is good to tread on and gets people encouraged to be out there.
And also maybe you want to keep out the brambles, because once you start to cut down the autumn olives, then all sorts of black raspberries and blackberries start to come up and also make it harder to get through. I've thought about funguses. Maybe there's a way to inject funguses into the trees that would then turn them into growing, edible, mushroom farms.
As they slowly decay the tree and let it die and fall down. So there's some good research for somebody. If any of the listeners are actually, scientists, that would be a really good thing to develop. Now, back to your idea of a collective.
If somebody listening to the show thinks, Hey, I know, or I can find some autumn olives in my community, I can do this and I can work with Dustin. Like how would that look and how could they reach out to you? they could find me through my website, www. autumnberryinspired. com. We also have a Facebook page with the same name.
my email, my phone number's up there. Go ahead and reach out to me. In order to buy and sell fruit would be Depending on how the how far it is in one way if you're up in Canada, it might not be practical Instead it might be more practical for me to license my logo to you so that you can use it You can borrow and buy the labels from me and we could go from there we've got a lot of listeners in the United States as well So if they're in the States, yeah, they reach out to you and you would figure out how to get the autumn berries to your processing center, is that it?
Or to their own processing center. My co packer in Southern Illinois is fantastic. Country Kettle is a great place to process. But if you're in upstate New York, it might not make sense. There might be a perfectly good jam maker there who would take your fruit, process it using the same recipe, make the same kind of jams, and then sell those into your local markets.
These do really well in co op grocery stores, health food stores, artisan food stores. And if you're close to a major population like New York or Chicago The, the big stores will love them. You can get them in there and urban people love this kind of thing. Oh, it's a fantastic product. So earlier in the show we were talking about, A, that you make these jams. You have three flavors. Tell me what the flavors are. the original is just autumn berries. Autumn berries sweetened with white cane sugar.
Then we added jalapeno for the jalapeno heat. It's mildly spicy, but overall very comfortable for everybody, even people sensitive to spice. And then habanero is a little more fiery. It has quite a kick, it has some burn at the end, and people who really spicy really love it. how do you serve these jams?
would you just put them on toast, or? It's great on toast, waffles, you can mix it into your ice cream. You can actually make ice cream. You can make autumn berry ice cream in a small ice cream maker by adding jam to your ice cream base. past that, anywhere you would use a jam. Huh. Okay. And you also make fruit leathers, which I tasted, which was quite tasty.
Thank you. Yeah. So what, how do you make those? when we were making the jam, I realized I wanted a product that was easier to ship and something I could make on small batches and something without sugar. So I've experimented for quite a while using autumn berries, apples, and even small amounts of aronia to create a, what I felt was a very tasty better than a fruit roll up, fruit snack.
And, so what we did was we found that about one portion berry to two portions apple works really well. Straight, autumn berry all the way is crispy, it doesn't have much flexibility to it, and it's also really, tart. Too tart for much, many people to enjoy. But when you use two parts apple, one part berry, you get something that's really nice.
We add a little bit of chia seed because chia seed is a great nutritional source. It also helps tie up the water and helps it dry better. And we add a little bit of honey and a little bit of lemon juice for tartness and also preservation. What we did is, what I found was that this works well with autumn berries or just about any other fruit.
any other strong, dark berry. So it works well with aronia. Aronia is a delicious fruit, chokeberry, but it's hard to enjoy fresh, right off the bush. we've made aronia fruit leather, red currant fruit leather, elderberry fruit leather. It works well with all of these. at once you've made your smoothie, mixed it up in a, mixer, then you can spread it out thin and dry it in a dehydrator for about 14 hours.
Once it is dry to the touch and there's nothing moving around, you can flip it over, make sure both sides are dry, and you can cut it with a pizza cutter. Wow, that is such a nice treat. Yeah. Very delicious as well. Oh, one other point to that, you can also top it with seeds. seeds before you dehydrate before you dry it and they will embed themselves in there so you can drop you after you've made your smoothie and spread it out thin.
You can throw pumpkin seeds, sunflower seeds, chia seeds, flax seeds, anything on there. Even you could put chocolate chips or mango slices, dried apples, and they will embed themselves in the fruit leather. When they dry, you've got this beautiful piece of art. I want to come to your house and try the one with chocolate chips.
How's that sound? Yeah, we can do that. We can do that. okay, so now you started this in what year? What was the year? 2012. 2012. So you must have produced a lot of jars of jam since then. We have, yeah. We've sold probably about 4, 000 jars of jam. So where do you see this going from here? From here, I think that it's Something that would be nice if it grew up into a giant company, but it's probably not really so easy to scale without a farm.
That's the challenge, is that every big food producer, once you go into the food world, they say, okay, wow, this is delicious, this is a great idea, but how are we going to get 100, 000 pounds next year? And I look at it and I say, wow, that would be quite challenging. I would have to find five or six producers, farmers across the country, who could get those from their local areas.
Without planting the plant. Without planting the plant. And I know it can be done. Large harvests were done in Virginia and Tennessee. But it's, it means that you'd have to be traveling to the different places to ensure the, quality. And yet, your idea of having partnerships is amazing. Where your partner makes money, you guys make money, and you're bringing this amazing product out to the world.
Now, one thing that I was wondering, the autumn olive, it partly spreads because birds eat the seeds, and then they, eat the berries, they drop the seeds, and a new plant grows. Do autumn olive berries always taste the same? Are they always tasty? generally, when they're ripe, they're pretty tasty.
fresh off the bush, they might be a new taste for you, and they can also be astringent. One thing to look for is that the fruit is sweeter and better after the cold comes and especially after a freeze but in my area You can't really wait for a freeze that might not come until November and by then the fruit has largely shriveled, fallen been eaten by birds.
So instead we just wait until cool weather comes And that's when the harvest is. That's usually when we want to do it. And that's why they're called autumn olives. That's right. So that's a nice time to do it. So basically, but because of the genetic diversity, it might not taste the same in Georgia as it does in Illinois.
It might not taste the same in, a neighboring, whatever acreage than it is to yours, because these are actually genetically different. That's right. And some might be more productive and people go out to their trees and say, this tree doesn't make anything. And this one does sometimes some years, the trees take a break.
They mast, they wait. So don't go ahead and not count that tree as a bad tree. It might just be taking a break for a year or two. you just got to watch them, which is one of the benefits of working with Autumn Berries. is you get to know not just the trees you planted, not just the plum that you bought from the, hardware store.
You also get to know what's wild out there and see how they grow and look at the trunk and say, wow, this tree grew all by itself for 10 or 15 years at, even though nobody was watering it. Nobody fed it. No, no fertility management. None of all of that. These trees are so vital. They have all this wild energy in them.
And that's why I think they're, they can be a very, good food source. it makes total sense, doesn't it? If they can thrive on so little, then if we eat the berries, maybe we get those benefits as well. Yeah. So remind us again, if people want to partner with you, if they want to learn more, where do they go?
go to the website, www. autumberryinspired. com. You can email me at planetdustin at gmail. com. you can call me, text me, and we'll start to discuss. Yeah, There's a lot of opportunity in this. I, even if you just want me as a coach, just to answer a few questions about saying, what is the best way to process?
What's the best way to harvest? I've got a lot of takes on that. Oh, that is wonderful, and I'm really glad that you spent the time to talk to us. Sure, or if you'd like to buy some cases, if you happen to have a grocery store, Or know somebody with a grocery store who might like these products. We can ship them in the mail.
we can ship jars of jam or fruit leather. That's great. So then you have enough that you could actually put them Oh, yeah. we're in several stores right now. which stores? If I wanted to buy just our local area. Local area. Okay. In the Champaign Urbana area, we have them in the Common Ground Food Co op, Strawberry Fields, the Harvest Market.
We're at the Pizza Shop. We're at a few places. And also our ice cream is for sale at the Red Bicycle, ice cream shop on Windsor Avenue. And we were in a few stores in Chicago even. Standard Market and, Chicago Local Food. But we haven't really gone to a big distributor to spread them out wide because we just don't really have that.
Because you're waiting for listeners to this show. That's right. To contact you so you guys can make lots and lots. That's right. And really make a difference. Because once you tell me that you've got 20 acres and you've got a little barn where you can harvest them, then you could put 20, 000 pounds in your freezer and with your food processor we can make jam and we can get that distribution that we need.
Oh, fantastic.
[00:31:59] Conclusion and Contact Information
Alrighty, thank you so much for coming on the show today. And good luck with your project and goodbye for now. Thank you. That was Dustin Kelly. I'm so glad he came on the show today. And that's all for this pre recorded episode of the Urban Forestry Radio Show. It has been so great to have you as a listener.
Now, if you want to learn more about fruit trees and food forests, why not head over to my website at orchardpeople. com. There you can download my free ebook about growing fruit trees. You can read my blog and listen to previous episodes of the show. Does that sound good? I hope so. I'll be back again with another fantastic guest next month.
So do remember to tune in, have a great month, everybody, and I'll see you next time.
You've been listening to the Urban Forestry Radio Show on Reality Radio 101. To learn more about the show and to download the podcast where I cover lots more great topics, you can visit orchardpeople. com slash podcast. This show is broadcast live on the last Tuesday of every month, and each time I have great new guests talking to me about fruit trees, food forests, and arboriculture.
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Thank you so much for tuning in. It's been wonderful to have you as a listener. And I hope to see you again next time.
Thank you for listening to the Urban Forestry Radio Show with your host, Susan Poizner, right here on Reality Radio 101.