Orchard People

[00:01:27] Preparing Fruit Trees for Winter
Here in Toronto, winter is just around the corner. We've already put most of our fruit trees to bed, we've mulched them to protect their little roots from winter frost, and they'll remain dormant until the growing season starts again in the spring.
So for fruit tree fanatics, this can be a little bit of a sad time. We don't have any trees to take care of, and We don't have any homegrown, fresh fruit to enjoy.
[00:01:55] Meet Steve Biggs: The Fig Pig
Well, my first guest today can help cure those winter blues for growers like us. His name is Steve Biggs. He's also known to friends and family affectionately.
As the fig pig.
[00:02:09] Growing Fig Trees Indoors
Steve is the author of a fantastic book called Grow Figs Where You Think You Can't, and he's going to teach us about growing fruit trees indoors during the winter. Later in the show we'll have a little visit with Thomas Wilson of Spirit Tree Estate Cidery in Caledon, Ontario. He'll talk about how he transformed his apple orchard in cidery.
into a tourist and fine dining destination. He'll also talk about slender spindle fruit tree pruning, a pruning style that helps him boost the quality and quantity of fruit on his trees. But first, let's start out with a juicy chat with the one and only Steve is in the studio with me today. Thank you so much for coming in, and welcome.
Thank you, Susan. Nice to be here. It's wonderful to have you. So, tell me a little bit about your background with fruit trees, and in particular with fig trees. I got my first fig tree as a teenager, and I'm in my 40s now, so that's maybe 30 years ago. But, for the first few years I had no idea what I was doing.
And it wasn't until I got my first house, and I had space to properly overwinter it, that I really got into fig trees. And, I was looking, we had a cold basement washroom, and I said to my wife, Boy, that room would be so great for overwintering my dormant fig trees. And she shook her head and thought I was crazy.
But that was the beginning of the real fig story. Now fruit trees, of course, were not new to you. You've been a gardener for a long time, I guess. Lifelong gardener, and I'm a horticulturist. I studied horticulture. So you're quite comfortable with plants and trees. So, fig trees, was there a challenge or was it just something that you figured out quite easily?
I had neighbors, when I was a kid, I had neighbors who grew fig trees. And I was intrigued because it's, it's a tree that needs a bit of extra care in the winter. And, and so that's what piqued my attention. So it's interesting. So you talk about the winter, and I don't know if you feel like I feel, where, you know, The rest of the year I am worried about my trees, I'm checking them, I'm pruning them, I'm mulching them, and then all of a sudden there's nothing to do.
[00:04:28] Fig Tree Care and Propagation
So, in that situation, will fig trees help me if I decide to be a mummy to a fig tree? Oh, absolutely, but I should, I should add that your fig trees will go dormant like a lot of the other fruit trees do, so don't expect your fig trees to be growing all winter. So if they're in my basement bathroom, I'll be like sort of pulling the, the curtain to the shower where they're sitting and just looking at them, I guess.
There's not much to do in the winter. They go dormant, they drop their leaves, but you will, if, if it's a potted fig tree that you're storing indoors in a cool place, you do need to check it. You do need to check the water. You don't want it to be too wet, but you don't want it to become bone dry. So there is a little bit of nurturing.
So, okay, so how often there your tree or trees are in your Washroom or cold area in the house. How often are you watching and looking in on that tree? Oh, for me, it's about once a month. Okay, so once a month, not a lot of work. It doesn't mean I'm adding water once a month. It really depends. As a gardener, you get to know when things need water.
You stick your finger right in the soil and get a sense of when it needs it. Okay. So the winter, it's there. You're tending your tree. But there's not much going on. Then, what happens next? So, I, I should add though, if, if you're into propagating your figs, if you're into growing figs from cuttings, a lot of people will start their fig cuttings in winter.
And people often take cuttings in the fall. They'll often trade them by mail. I have some that are supposed to be en route to me now and, and I'll get those and store them in the fridge for a couple of weeks. And then probably soon in the new year, I will pot them up and I will start growing fig, baby little fig plants under lights.
Hmm. So you're getting cuttings and they are easy to root like that? You just keep your cuttings in the fridge and then Stick them in soil, that's it? Yeah, yeah. Now they need to stay, slightly moist. So I wrap them in damp paper towel, put them in a plastic bag. But figs, the big thing to know for anybody thinking about growing figs is that they are remarkably hardy plants.
And so it's easy to store this dormant wood and it is very easy to root. this wood in, in, in cuttings and make new plants. Now you have your cuttings, you're going to pot them up in the spring. When do you take your fig trees out? And I'm assuming you're, you're storing them in, you know, they have potted, they've got soil with the pot, so it's not like they're bare roots sitting in your dark, your dark, cold room in the basement.
[00:06:58] Challenges and Rewards of Growing Figs
Well, the, the big thing that you want to know about fig trees is that when they're dormant, They can actually freeze, and a lot of people think they are tender tropical plants, which they're not. They can, they can take a mild freeze. And, so you can go down minus five, minus ten Celsius. It depends on Celsius, depends on the variety, it depends on the conditions, but you can go down below freezing.
Now, the thing is, once you have leaves and nice tender buds on that plant, then you don't want it to freeze because that'll burn those off. So with your little plants that are growing nicely indoors, you want to put them out when there is no risk of frost because you don't want to burn off all that tender new growth that you've worked so hard to nurture.
So then I put it outside, it's still in the pot. I guess you don't unpot it and pop it in the ground. You could. There's no reason you couldn't, other than in the fall when it gets cold again, you'll need to take some measure to protect it, which might mean taking it indoors. But you can grow it in the ground, you can grow it in a pot, either works fine.
Hmm. And then you treat it like any other fruit tree that you have, I guess? Or does it need special care? Tell me a little bit about the extra care. Well, so here in Toronto, the extra care is in the wintertime. Because, while it can freeze, it can't take our winter extremes. And that means, what I do with mine is they go, indoors in a cold, dark area.
They're dormant, they're potted. some people, though, will grow them in the ground. And what they do in the winter is they will, loosen the roots on one side and bend that plant over, mulch it. And, I know other people who build temporary structures around their figs. If you get a little bit south of here where it's warmer, sometimes it's enough to wrap them in insulation.
So, but the big thing is that with a fig, in the winter, in a colder climate, you need to give it some extra protection. And there's no right or wrong. The big message I'd love to leave listeners is there's no right or wrong when it comes to how you do this. Be creative. I heard of one guy who builds, has a permanent structure around his plant, and in the winter he clads that with, rigid foam, and he has a little heat cable in there.
And, and that works for him, but the key thing is in the winter you do have to give a little bit of protection in cold climates. So basically there are some climates where they will stay in the ground, but I just, it, it astounds me that you will actually dig up some of the roots and bend it over like a, you know, It's like a reed or something and bury it in the ground, essentially.
It's almost like, and when you talk about, you know, building a structure, I have in my mind a coffin, building a coffin, putting, pulling your tree over to the side, it's partially rooted, partially not rooted, burying it. Well, what's interesting is that, Paris, France, if you think of Paris, France, it's a very temperate climate and, you can't grow big fig trees there.
It's too cold. But, in the early 1900s, there was such a demand for fig fruit. And fig fruit shipped so poorly that there were fig orchards on the periphery of the city. And they would grow these fig trees on, on slight ridges, and then bend them over and mulch them and protect them for the winter. So this isn't a new thing.
This has been going on for a long time. Hmm.
[00:10:18] Global Fig Enthusiasts and Varieties
I know that you, because of your book, that you get letters from all over the world. Tell me a little bit about who's writing you. Who else is growing figs that we should know about? Oh boy, I've heard from fig enthusiasts in many places. The UK, I just heard from somebody in Sweden, someone in Norway, way up north in Norway, who's eager to grow figs and find a variety that will, will mature very quickly.
So, There's a deep interest in figs, and I haven't figured out what the fascination with figs is. I think there's lots of references in, in, in literature and in religious works, and, and people consider it a tropical fruit. So when they realize that it's easy enough to grow. Maybe that's part of the fascination.
Let's talk a little bit about varieties. Mm hmm. first of all, I think we should know, how many trees, Steve, do you have at home? Is this Oh, well, be warned, it's an addiction. So I have more than 50 varieties right now. Not really intentionally, I just started trading with people. And, I have a friend who claims to have 200 varieties.
And, so you do need a strong marriage for it to withstand all these bossy plants taking over the yard. Wow, so basically it's a big yard filled with 50 Fig trees. And do you get one of every variety? Do you discover or how do you choose? How do you decide which? Well, I should say I don't intend to keep 50 varieties as I bring all of these to fruit I can pick and choose those that I like best and and I don't want to keep 50 fig plants because it is a lot Of work.
There are so many though And so what people would want to consider is that first of all the flavor just as with apples The flavor of different varieties of fig can vary greatly. So some have more of a berry like taste. Some are more date like and sweet. You get that cloyishly sweet taste. So the flavor can vary greatly.
The color. You can have figs that are almost white through yellows, browns, purples, blacks on the outside. And then the flesh inside too can be anywhere from white through to strawberry to a dark purple y color. So there's an immense variety. So taste, colour, and then size. There are some that are a little bit bigger than a thumbnail, and then there are some that are enormous.
I have one variety I was given that's called Melanzana. I'm told that means eggplant in Italian. And it's this beautiful, big, elongated fig with a purply colour, so aptly named. And, it, I like it just for the novelty. When I show people that fig, they'll say, Wow, I had no idea. So, it's one that's been fun for me.
There's one I love called Vert, and, Vert, green in French, and it's a green skinned fig, but with a strawberry coloured pulp inside. And, not the earliest fig, but what I love about this fig is the flavour. I told you earlier about the berry flavor versus the more date like flavor. This has a really strong berry flavor, and to me, to my palate, it's just a wonderful one.
And then one other thing with varieties is, there are two fig crops a year. You can have this, what's called a Breba crop on last year's wood, and it comes in Toronto. It usually comes in July. Or there's a fall crop on the new growth that comes in September October. And, I love to get that early crop.
I'm an impatient person. I want figs in July. So the, the gold standard variety is called Desert King. If you want those July figs, those brebif. And so it's a favourite of mine for that reason. Nice and early. Very nice. So, I guess you guys are eating, you and your family are eating a lot of figs every summer.
Lots. Lots and lots. Well, Steve, we're going to take a minute for a few words from our sponsors, but after the break we're going to continue to chat. We'll chat a little bit more about figs, we'll chat about lemon trees. You're listening to the Urban Forestry Radio Show on Reality Radio 101. I'm Susan Poizner, and we'll be back in just a moment.
Tonight don't leave me alone, walk with me, come and walk with me.
Hey Sally, your garden is looking great today. Thanks Gary. Your lawn is looking a little bit dry. Ah, that's okay. It's all going to change. Soon I'm going to plant a fruit tree in my yard. I'm thinking an apple tree or maybe peach. That sounds great, but do you know what you're doing? Well, fruit trees are easy.
You just plant them, water them, and wait for the harvest, right? Actually, that's not quite the case. What? Organic orchardists spend a lot of time protecting their fruit trees from pest and disease problems. Really? And in order to thrive, fruit trees need to be pruned every year. Hmm, I didn't know that.
I'll tell you what, before you buy your tree, why don't you go to orchardpeople. com. You'll learn lots about growing fruit from the blog, and there's a fantastic monthly newsletter with seasonal tips and reminders. Maybe I should check that out. Yeah, then if you really want to move ahead You can sign up for OrchardPeople.
com's beginner fruit tree care course. So, maybe I should hold off on buying my tree today? You got it. The more you know, the better your tree will grow. Sign up for a free membership to OrchardPeople. com today.
Are you new to growing fruit trees? Or perhaps a seasoned expert. Either way, come and join the Community Orchard Network. We are a group of community and home orchardists from across North America who gather through monthly webinars, radio broadcasts like this one, and podcasts. We want to share our experience.
Deepen our knowledge and widen the movement. Join the conversation. Visit www.orchardpeople.com/network to find out more. This message was brought to you by the Baltimore Orchard Project.
She wants lots in the magazines.
Welcome back to the Urban Forestry Radio Show with your host Susan Poiser. Right here on Reality Radio 101. Send us an email, realityradio101@yahoo.com
And now, back to your host of the Urban Forestry Radio Show, Susan Poizner. This is the Urban Forestry Radio Show brought to you by the Community Orchard Network. I'm Susan Poizner, and today I'm chatting with Steve Biggs, the author of Grow Figs Where You Think You Can't. Steve, we were talking about your fig addiction.
And, tell me something. You were, you mentioned, during the, the break about your, your fig hedge. What's a fig hedge? What's happening with that?
[00:18:03] Steve's Fig Hedge and Overwintering Techniques
Yeah, so the fig hedge was new to my garden this year. And maybe I should back up and, and tell listeners that, I've been keeping figs now in my garage for the past half dozen years.
It started in the basement washroom, as I said earlier in the show. We moved, I insulated the new garage, and I put the figs in there for the winter. But unfortunately, I ran out of space, so I was trying to think of a, a new place to store figs. And I had seen, my friend Adriano, Adriano's figs, here in the GTA.
He has a, a method of overwintering figs in these wooden boxes. They look like coffins, really, above the ground, and he lays these potted figs over on their side, covers it with foam, and, and that's enough in this climate to, get those plants to survive. And it's a great idea, but I didn't want that look in my garden of the wooden boxes, so I thought, well, what if I just sunk it all down?
And I had this square area below ground where I could cover with insulation, so I dug a square trench. A rectangular trench, rather. And, my potted figs, I just, I laid them on their sides in this trench and I've covered it with some straw. And, and that's how they will stay for the winter. So in the summertime, with all of these potted figs standing up in the trench, though, it is a fig hedge.
Two fig trees wide and it was about ten or fifteen long. And it looked really nice. So, figs, the The other thing that you should know about figs too is they're beautiful. They have these lobed leaves, the bark is this nice grey bark, almost like an elephant skin, so a very ornamental plant as well. I would love to see a picture of your fig hedge.
Maybe I can put it on orchardpeople. com to show people. Do you have any pictures? Wonderful. I have a picture for you. Definitely. Okay, so have a look at that, on OrchardPeople. com. I'll put that up soon. so Steve, before we move on to our next subject, if people want to get hold of your book about figs, what will they learn and where can they find it?
Well, I have a website, which is grow figs. com, so grow figs. com, and I have a blog on there with neat pointers on fig growing. I meet a lot of interesting people and hear from people, so I put ideas up there. And on this same website, grow figs. com, I have the book for sale, so people can get the book there.
Super, that's wonderful. Okay. Well, for some of us, having fig trees in the basement, or in the garage, or buried in the ground just isn't good enough. It's not sort of interactive enough, it doesn't bring the green into our homes, and the fruit, and whatever.
[00:20:46] Exploring Indoor Lemon Trees
So, Steve, maybe there are other trees that you would suggest, like lemon trees, where we can continue to grow them inside.
Mm hmm. I'm a big fan of lemons. So, how many lemon trees do you have? Are they different varieties? And what has that experience been like for you? I have, four lemon plants, two varieties. And I have a Myers lemon, and I also have an unnamed lemon, but it has a pedigree that appeals to me because it was grafted by an old guy down the street, who I knew when I was a kid.
So it's sentimental to me. So what kind of crop do you expect from an indoor lemon tree or lemon plant? Well, it, it really depends on how you grow it. And, the best luck I have had with lemons is when I had an unheated sunroom and it would dip down to just above freezing in the wintertime, but it was really bright and the lemons just loved it.
Hmm. Now, unfortunately, I've changed my house surrounds and I don't have that anymore, and I've been bringing the lemons inside. Now, when you get into a house with central heating, it is, drier air. And the lighting might not be as good as a sunroom. And so it's not an ideal situation. It's not to say that you can't grow lemons in, indoors, but the best luck I've had is with an unheated sunroom.
We got, I got a lemon tree a couple of years ago, and it was sweet as anything. First of all, the flowers were so incredibly fragrant. In the middle of winter, just when you're longing to go outside and there's nothing but snow, you have this magical smell of the lemon blossoms. That was incredible. And then the fruit is growing.
Again, middle of winter, we see these baby fruits growing. What we found, we have a small house and we decided we didn't have room for it in the end, but what we found was the tree ended up having very few leaves. Mm hmm. And this, so this is a very common thing when you, bring a citrus tree indoors. They often react by dropping leaves.
Now, it doesn't mean that they're dying. So don't, don't get too worried. Often that change in environment will cause the leaf drop and, keep that tree alive and it'll send out new leaves in the spring. And, on the subject of leaves, that, by the way, is another reason to grow a lemon tree. If you crumple that lemon leaf, You will get a beautiful smell from it.
It's full of essential oils. And what you can do if you're grilling things, when I'm grilling kebabs, for example, I will often wrap them in lemon leaves, and it will impart these beautiful flavours into your kebab. You're not eating the leaf in the end, but you're, you're getting this Beautiful flavoring from it.
So, so growing lemons, there are really, I say, three reasons, the flowers for the smell, the fruit, obviously, but then the leaves, don't forget the leaves. So essentially the, you're using the leaves as a herb in a way, are they actually edible or is it just the essential oil and the smell? I've, well, I've never tried eating them, so I don't know, but, but.
As a cooking, aid. They're fabulous. Very nice. Very nice. So, okay, varieties. This, the Meyer lemon is very popular here in Ontario. When you go to pick up a lemon tree, that's basically what they have. How is it different? Do you find it different from a regular lemon tree? It is, and in fact, I've seen them in our supermarkets on rare occasion at a premium price.
You see, the Meyer's lemon has a very thin skin, and so it doesn't ship as well as the The lemons that we see more often, so, that's all the more reason to grow it, because it's hard to buy. And it has this thin skin, and when you cut into it, the flesh is almost orange y, because, in the bloodlines for this fruit, are some other citrus.
And I don't remember whether it's, an orange relative, or tangerine, or what it is, but anyway, the, the bloodlines are a bit different, and so it's a little bit milder, and if you're making a sorbet, it's beautiful. Wonderful. And in terms of how much fruit you'll get, I have a Meyer's lemon bush that's about knee high and, a couple years back I had 50 lemons on this little wee thing.
So they can be very productive if you make them happy. I also know that you've mentioned to me in the past that you sometimes hack away at their roots. well, I, I cut back and, and re pot.
[00:25:17] Root Pruning Techniques
Every so often, and when I do, then I do cut back the roots. And, and what is the goal of doing that? Well, I want them to stay in the same size pot.
I don't want to keep potting them up forever into bigger pots because there's, there's only, they can only get so big and, and be, easy to lift. So, every so often, every three, four years, I will cut back the root ball, and you can use a saw. Do it gently. You don't want to butcher the thing totally, but you can cut off, shave off, an inch all the way around or more and, and then repot it.
It sounds so cruel, doesn't it? It does. Think of it as a haircut. Oh, it's a haircut for their roots. So your four lemon plants seem healthy. They're doing okay.
[00:26:04] Indoor vs. Outdoor Growing
And, now you, I know you take those trees, those plants outside during the summer. They're outside all summer, and Would they survive if somebody had an apartment, for instance, a sunny apartment?
If they, you could leave them inside during the summer as well? Well, conceivably. the, the big thing is you do want good light. to, to get good growth and good fruit formation. So then the question is, what kind of light do you have in that apartment? And that's one of the challenges of indoor growing. So ideally you have somewhere to put them outside.
The other challenge that I faced when I grew that, that lemon tree, the indoor outdoor tree, was, nutrition. Because when a plant is in a pot, It doesn't have access, it's roots can't reach out and go find nutrition somewhere else in the soil. and I didn't know what to do. What, what does it want from me?
I wasn't sure.
[00:27:02] Fertilizing Potted Plants
What do you do in terms of fertilizing these plants? Well, I guess the first comment I have, and this applies to the figs and the citrus, is that, all potted plants will need food because they're in a pot, it's this limited soil volume. So it's a good point that you brought up. If you're growing things in containers, you must be prepared to feed them.
Now there are lots of different brands and lots of different formulations and, and sometimes I meet people who are just utterly confused by all of these different numbers. And so what I say to them is, well look, start with a general purpose feed, because if you go to a garden center often they'll have one for orchids, they'll have one for grass, one for cedars, one for this and that, and you can leave there with a bag full of 20 different products.
Don't do that. Just start with one general purpose product. Try it out, see how it works, and most times that'll work. Now, sometimes with citrus, if you get a, a very alkaline soil, they will, not be able to pull out the iron out of the, the soil. And so you can, augment the iron or you can use a fertilizer formulation that's slightly acidic to make it available.
But You start with the general purpose mix. And then just watch your plant and see how it's doing. Exactly. Just watch. And if it doesn't like the soil, pick up the phone, call Steve. Ask him, Steve, what's going on with my plant? So that's what I do. Anyways, okay, so that's interesting.
[00:28:39] Exploring Indoor Fruiting Plants
Are there any other fruiting plants that we can grow indoors during the winter?
Is there anything else that you've tried or you know of? Well, let me tell you about what I have indoors this winter. So last year I had the lemons indoors. They were nice. I've only brought one in, and the other ones are in the cold room in my garage this winter, and they'll do just fine there. And this year, I've brought the olives indoors, because I have a bit of an olive fetish going on right now.
I just love the look of an olive plant. It is so beautiful with them. This gray foliage, these narrow gray leaves. And so olives is a plant that you can bring in for their look. Don't expect to be picking olives off of these plants in the winter. But if you're into growing plants to produce edibles and you want something just to put inside for the winter, try an olive.
And in the summer, are you picking olives off these trees? No, I am not. I have a mate for my two olive trees this year. You need different varieties, and so it's just this last year that I got a mate for them. So I'm waiting. I'm eagerly waiting. The other addition this year is I have a kaffir lime, which is a citrus, and it is in the kitchen this year, and if you're into making Thai curries, that's the essential ingredient.
Hard to find the leaves often in the supermarket, and I was delighted when I found one. Oh, fantastic. I must say the most success we've had with an indoor outdoor tree, and this is not fruiting per se, but it's our bay tree. Mm hmm. And it's lovely. It's grown bigger and bigger. It won't, wouldn't survive outside on its own in our climate here in Toronto, but it's just so easy to take care of.
Mm hmm. Finally, back on the nutrition, the issue of nutrition.
[00:30:22] Winter Care for Citrus and Fig Trees
It is the winter. Obviously, you would not put any fertilizer at all on your dormant fig trees. Good question, and no, I would not. What about your lemon trees? Are there anything that is not dormant? Would you continue to fertilize them over the winter?
Right now, I would not. The days are still getting shorter and plants are just growing slowly. But often, what happens is as the days become longer in late winter and spring, then you will see plants start to put on a lot of new growth. And as you see that growth, you can feed, but I would feed feed.
Lightly, when they're indoors still. Right. And as soon as they go outside, they get the, the, maybe a more aggressive regime. Yeah, that's right. Once they're outdoors and growing actively. And by the way, talking about putting them outdoors, just a, a quick note is, it's easy to sunburn your citrus or your fig cuttings when you put them outside.
Imagine those leaves that are growing in a fairly dark indoor environment going out outside into the bright sun. they can get scalded and burnt. So a good measure, move them into a shaded spot. To begin with, yeah, it's not like your tomato plants where you're going to bring them in and out. And every day during the day, bring them out for an hour, but you can't do that with a tree.
They're so heavy that you just don't want to bring them in and out. So that seems like a good solution. Start them off in the shade and slowly move them. Nurture them slowly as they go into the sunshine and get ready to enjoy the hot summer. That's right. I just have, I have a few more minutes with you.
[00:31:57] Introducing the New Book
I would love to ask you a little bit about your most recent book, which you wrote with your daughter. Can you tell me a little bit about that? I can. My daughter, Emma, is now 10 and an avid gardener, just loves gardening. And when I did my first book about veggie gardening, Emma was eagerly drawing all these pictures for it.
And, so I'd been thinking about how to do a kid's book. And in the end we co wrote a vegetable, a gardening book rather, called Grow Gardeners, kid tested gardening with children, and, Emma did the illustrations and she did the captions for the photos and, the essence of the book. is that if we want to raise our kids to be gardeners, then we need to get them outdoors and we need to get them playing outdoors, exploring, collecting things.
And that could be things like feathers, pine cones, rocks. It doesn't have to all be plant material. And. As we do all of these things, they will be outdoors and, and the gardening comes naturally. Wonderful. So how does she feel being quite a celebrity? I, I understand she's going out and doing talks with you and talking to groups or to other children.
She's quite modest. I said, did you tell your friends at school? And she'll say, well, not really, but she's going out and giving talks with me. She's been on the radio and she's very. Calm and composed, and I'm wishing I had been like that when I was 10 years old. What's your next book gonna be about? I have some ideas, and I'm not sure.
Probably something that I can eat, though. I hope so, because I'm looking forward to seeing it. Thank you. Well, okay, thanks so much, Steve, for coming to the studio today, and for chatting with me about fig trees, about lemon trees, about all sorts of good stuff. It makes me feel a little better, now that it's grey outside, and I have nothing to grow inside my house other than houseplants.
Plants. So it makes me feel quite a bit better.
[00:33:53] Touring Spirit Tree Estate Cidery
Coming up next, how do you turn your orchard and cidery into a tourist destination? I'm going to talk to Thomas Wilson of Spirit Tree Nursery in Caledon, Ontario. His is a destination that offers great food, baked goods, and fancy sized ciders. So stay tuned.
So Steve, we will see you again another day. I hope you'll come back to the show. I would love to. Thanks for having me. Thank you so much. You're listening to Reality Radio 101. This is the urban forestry radio show brought to you by the Community Orchard Network. I'm Susan Poizner, and I'll be back after these messages from our sponsors.
Are you new to growing fruit trees? Or perhaps a seasoned expert? Either way, come and join the Community Orchard Network. We are a group of community and home orchardists. From across North America who gather through monthly webinars, radio broadcasts like this one and podcasts, we want to share our experience, deepen our knowledge, and widen the movement.
Join the conversation. Visit www.orchardpeople.com/network to find out more. This message was brought to you by the Baltimore Orchard Project.
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Welcome back to the urban forestry radio show with your host, Susan Poizner. Right here, on Reality Radio 101. To contact Susan by email, email her realityradio101@yahoo.com.
And now, right back to your host, Susan. I'm Susan Poizner and you're listening to the Urban Forestry Radio Show brought to you by the Community Orchard Network. A program where we learn about fruit trees, food, forests, permaculture, and lots more. Thanks for tuning in. Earlier this year, I went to a cidery here in Ontario.
And what I expected to see was a beautiful big orchard and a selection of homemade ciders to taste. What I found was a tourist destination. Spirit Tree Estate Cidery was developed to be like a winery for cider lovers. There are apple and cider tastings. There's a shop and a restaurant all inside a huge straw bale building.
So during my visit, I chatted with the owner, Thomas Wilson, to find out how he came to create Spirit Tree Estate Cidery.
[00:38:10] The History and Evolution of the Cidery
So, tell me a little bit about the history of the cidery here and of the orchard here. did you start it? How old are these trees? A little bit of history. Sure. I grew up on a fruit farm, and, but my wife and I decided we were going to, we were going to do something different. We wanted to do something like a winery, but it was a cidery.
I still like growing apples, and we wanted to grow apples, but also then value add. Do some, what can you do with them? So the big one was then, of course, to press juice, and with juice you have fermentation. So we basically, are doing that here. So we planted an orchard that It would give us the apples we wanted to press fresh juice, but also specifically make hard ciders.
We thought that hard cider was something that was going to go again, ironically. Cider in the market is this cool new drink, but ironically, I mean, it's the drink of old. It's like mead. It's been around forever. But, people think it's this new drink. And, yeah, I guess we've picked right because cider is a very hot beverage here in North America, here in Ontario, Canada.
Internationally, it's, it's growing. It's, it's the kind of the new cool drink. So, you planted your first trees in what year? 2005, we, bought the property. And we'd already ordered the trees, so we took possession the end of April and we started planting in May. And so what's changed between 2005 and now?
Have, have, has your approach changed, the varieties that you choose? How have things evolved? yeah, the industry is really taking off, so it's been interesting. We, we planted this orchard to keep things simple. I went with varieties that I could get at the nursery that I knew could make cider. So, we stayed more to Vecca and Golden Delicious, things like that.
Because those apples are giving us our acids and our sugars. And, it's really hard to find cider apples, so what we did was we planted a couple of small test blocks because the trees I could get were quite expensive. the industry is now evolving and, in the last two years, all the major nurseries have basically started propagating cider apples.
So now, I have ease of access and the costs are down. So basically now we can really focus on planting those cider apples. to get those tannins that we need and those varietals that really will make classic premium ciders. What does, you said you grew up on a farm as well. Like, how does this all look to your family that grew up in a different kind of generation of farming?
Yeah, my dad, this has been a real interesting thing for him because He grew up on a farm that was just your traditional, grains and then my grandfather planted apples. He grew up growing apples and all, the only thing you do with apples is you pick them and ship them for, for processing and for, for the market.
And, and it's a tough market because you're, you're the grower, so you don't get paid very well, unfortunately. And, So watching what we're doing here where we're growing certain varietals and then doing all this value added and basically creating a winery style cidery was, was really, he was very intrigued by it and so then he, he still is here all the time just to see what's going on because it's been, yeah, it's been very intriguing to him.
What's the learning curve been like? I mean, I guess you didn't always know how to make cider. how, how has that experience been for you? Yeah, it's, that one, again, we had to start from scratch, so ironically of course cider is very well known in England, so we went to Somerset and we took a cider makers course in Somerset, England.
We toured a lot of the cideries there, we, offshoot, because we have the bakery here, we, we actually, studied our artisan bread at the Cordon Bleu in Paris. So while we were there, of course, we were drinking French cider. We didn't get out to Normandy, unfortunately. But, so we had to basically go where the cider's made and learn from that.
And then, at the same time, there's been a lot of trial and error and experimenting. But, our focus here is, is not to just come up with some jazzy, trendy thing. We want to stay true to the styles and the history of cider. So, we're more like craft beer. We're trying to craft unique products, but in a, in a, in a classic way.
So that, that's our, our methodology here. You were talking about value added, and when you come up here, first of all, the site is absolutely beautiful. And you've got, we're right now inside a straw bale house, or big building. And, there's incredible shopping downstairs, you can buy all sorts of products, and there's a There's a bake oven.
Is it a special bake oven that you got? Yeah, it's, it's a, it's a wood fired oven. So, think a little pizza oven. But we've built a commercial one here that's 40 square feet. So it's 8 feet deep and 5 feet wide. And we, the bakers are working this morning out. So we bake every morning artisan breads here.
So I'm just interested in how this all fits in with the business plan and it kind of makes sense. I'm assuming the weekends are swamped with families who want the whole experience and to buy some cider. No, exactly. We wanted to, we knew getting into cider, it's such a new drink and no one knows anything about it.
So Where do you go to find out? So we want, it, it, it, it, and especially in hindsight, this turned into a monumental effort. We wanted to create a destination that, where people could come embrace the whole culture of cider. So yeah, not only do we grow the apples here, they can watch the juice being pressed, they can see the cellar where we ferment the ciders and, and have a full experience.
So food, we, we do artisan breads, we have local foods. And then we have the restaurant, so then they can have a full sampling of cider and food that's matched with it and just have a full food experience. It's a foodie, foodie destination.
[00:44:28] Pruning Techniques for Cider Apples
Now, just to talk a little bit about pruning. So, I understand that, that you are the one who goes out to prune the trees.
I'm looking outside, there are a lot of trees out there. So, what does that look like for you? Yeah, it, it's a lot of work, but actually it's one of the things I like most. to do. It's, it's very zen, I guess, the best way to put it. the summer pruning is more what we call a haircut. so it's just, we're just cutting back some of the new growth.
to open that canopy back up. again, it's, it's just like the cider industry and the grape industry for wine is very similar. So, we're just opening that canopy up a bit to help lighten, to finish the ripening on the apples and maybe thin some fruit as we're going. the winter pruning is, is the, the more extreme and that's basically when we have some time.
So, basically from February, March, you know, mid into April, we're, we're out, well, mostly me. And, I'm, I'm designing those trees. That's where I'm doing more severe cuts, to basically keep the tree trained and keep it in balance. it can overgrow one side or the other and the top can get turned, so, or, or damaged or diseased.
So, we're constantly cutting those back and reshaping the scaffold, it's called, of the tree to keep it in balance. Now you called it, spindle growing. What, what does spindle actually mean? Spindle is where we place the tree with a stake that's usually six feet tall beside it and the tree is then trained up the stake so it's, there's, there's actually, it's a, it's a vinyl binding tube that holds the tree to the stake but then it can stretch to allow the tree to grow and move and so the tree is being trained up that stake.
They're, they're actually a dwarf rootstock, so like roses and grafting and clones. The trees are the exact same, and what we've done is we've cloned a, a, a, the, the, the variety, the, say, a Macintosh, to a rootstock, but that rootstock is gonna control the size of the tree. So we're growing these dwarf trees, and then what we're doing is we're forcing them up high.
And with some lateral branches coming out to fill the row in, but not much out into the row. So that we're, again, it's almost like an espalier because they're quite high and they're very slim. What's the advantage of growing your fruit trees in that way? These trees are for cider apples, I'm guessing all of them.
And, to what extent does this make your life easier as a grower? The, the quality of the fruit is number one. you basically get really great, sunlight, so you get great sugars. the big one too is light penetration, air movement. the trees are definitely more airy, so that there's less disease and insect pressures to the trees.
And, the only, I'd say, problem you can run into is with this kind of height to the tree. There's a lot of load there, so the tree can easily snap over. in a windstorm, especially when there's a crop load on like fall when we're at harvest. So, having these stakes to hold the trees up is why they're there.
And, even going to the tensile wire, we're looking at wire because we've actually lost some trees this year. Literally the crop load overwhelms the stake and the whole thing goes over. Wow. So you talk about using dwarf rootstock. So from what I understand, your dwarf rootstock will stop your tree from growing super big.
it influences the size of the tree when it's mature. However, could you not use a regular rootstock that would grow a full sized tree? And just keep pruning it to keep it small. To some degree, you could do what's like a bonsai. But, that tree is still, still wanting to push. What's going to end up being is a lot of sucker growth.
So you're, you're creating work there. Where these trees aren't trying to push these big trees. So with some pruning, they're not going to create all this sucker growth in the spring. the other one with these rootstocks is they're not just been bred for the size. They've actually been bred for, disease resistance and fruit quality.
So, these trees will produce apples sooner, so literally right after they're planted. they'll also have disease resistance, so fire blight resistance, you're seeing resistance to, woolly apple aphid and things like that. So these, these, these, these rootstocks have multiple functions.
[00:49:05] Conclusion and Upcoming Episodes
It was great visiting Thomas at Spirit Tree Cidery.
And I really enjoyed learning about slender spindle pruning from him. If you want to watch a video of him demonstrating slender spindle pruning, visit OrchardPeople. com and have a look at the video in our blog. You can just type in the search term spindle. And you'll find the story. I also have a video on the site of Steve Biggs talking about the secrets of growing fig trees in a cold climate.
You can also find that at orchardpeople. com. Well, that's all for the show today. But before we wrap up, here's a big thank you to my wonderful guests, Steve Biggs, author of Grow Figs Where You Think You Can't, and Thomas Wilson from Spirit Tree Estate Cidery in Caledon, Ontario. Thank you so Thanks so much for listening, everyone.