Orchard People

[00:00:01] Dealing with Unwelcome Garden Visitors
Hi, everybody.
If you grow fruit trees and vegetables, you probably spend at least some time stressing about unwelcome visitors to your garden, like raccoons, deer, and even squirrels. Those guys can be really frustrating. Sometimes I'll go into the garden and I'll see that a squirrel has torn one of my ripe home grown tomatoes right off the plant.
They nibble it a bit, and then they just leave the mess behind just to torment me. And raccoons, they love using the top of my compost bin as their own personal toilet. It's pretty disgusting. And I'm currently plotting out ways that I can fight back against those rascals. Now, there are other animals, though, that may be a welcome addition to your garden.
Animals that can actually help maintain and protect the space, and even help fruit tree growth. Some of these are farm animals, and some are animals that you might even be able to accommodate in your city garden.
[00:01:05] Guest Introduction: Joel Salatin
Our guest today on the show is Joel Salatin of Polyface Farms in Virginia. Joel is a very interesting person, and he was featured on the documentary Food Inc., and in Michael Pollan's excellent book, The Omnivore's Dilemma. He's written lots of great books on organic farming and the organic farming business.
So I did a really nice pre interview with Joel to figure out what we would talk about today. So I have some good information for you and as well.
[00:01:34] Listener Participation and Studio Interaction - Gary Leads the Way: The good, the bad, the helpful stories of dealing with animals in the garden
But here is what I would love from you today, listeners. Can you please send in your stories and your experiences with animals in the garden?
Good ones, bad ones, helpful ones, your pets in the garden, and we will talk about that today. Okay, and also I have assisting me today is Gary in the studio. Say hi Gary. Hello everyone. So Gary's family, you guys are great gardeners. Yes, we try to be. You try to be. We try to be. So tell me something, you may not have a fruit tree, but do you have animals in your garden?
Consistently. We fight off the squirrels, we have rabbits, we have chipmunks, and once in a while we get the occasional skunk. That's true. And also raccoons. Ah, the raccoons. Raccoons. The raccoons. And the raccoons can be, as as a lot of listeners know, raccoons, you look at them and you say, oh, they're so cute and they have their mask on and everything, but they can be very dangerous, very nasty, and if you try to approach one, and usually they're nocturnal, they come out at night, they can be very dangerous and hurt you if they're going after your fruit or your vegetables.
So you gotta be very careful about that when you're dealing with raccoons, if you see them in your garden. the raccoons really love my garden, because the lady who lived in my garden, or lived in my house before we did, was an elderly lady who hand fed the raccoons. Oh, no. She thought they were cute.
She was a great gardener, and she hand fed them, and that's quite dangerous. So everybody, if you want to email us, please do email in your questions, your stories about animals in the garden, or about any other fruit tree questions, because some of you may have questions you want to ask me. This is your opportunity.
[00:03:26] Protecting Your Fruit Trees
So let me talk here about some conversation online. Did you know Gary, that bunny rabbits, which are usually, quite a scourge in, the orchard. So bunny rabbits, what they do is they eat around the bark of the tree.
That's correct. Yes, they do. And that is not good for the tree. And it can actually kill the tree because there's living tissue under the bark. And if the tree can't get its nutrition from that living root system, all the nutrition that's stored in the root system can't go up into the tree, then the tree will die.
What about, you see this occasionally bark wrap, like a wrap on that. Is that something that would help that or prevent it? Yes, it is. It is. And they're made out of plastic and these are plastic trunk protectors. They're various different ones. So those are fantastic in the winter. And you put them on your tree in the winter, especially your young fruit tree.
It will protect the tree from anything like, anything that nibbles the bark. But here is the warning, okay? Something that people don't consider, including myself, is sometimes you forget to take those wrappers off. Ah. in the springtime. So what happens is underneath that plastic is a perfect place for pests to hide and to multiply and be fruitful.
And so actually a couple of weeks ago in the garden, in our orchard, we noticed that one of the trees, while we were painting our trees white, as we do to protect them, one of the trees had its plastic protector on and we took the protector off and we saw all sorts of caterpillars. for Gypsy Moth.
And they were having so much fun under there until their end came. We had to stomp on them. now, but you're talking about the actual plastic wrap, right? Yes. What about the wrap that's more of a cloth, almost like an ace bandage? You know when you see people wrap, like a, I don't know if you're familiar with that, but there is a wrap that you buy, it's in a roll, and you can wrap the bottom of that up.
maybe six inches a foot, however you wrap it. And it's actually a cloth, right? Now, if people use that, is that, does that also have to be removed in the spring or the summer? It does. Because what you're trying to avoid is moisture coming up to the trunk of the tree. So when you have moisture, and, you're holding a nice, warm, cozy area, again, the pests will love it.
They'll crawl in there. It's protected. They will again be fruitful and multiply, and then they'll be all over your trees like the gypsy moth would have been if we had not caught them and stomped on them. And right now we've been, we were in the park harvesting last night our cherries, and I didn't see any sign of gypsy moth, so we managed to wipe them out.
So any kind of. protector like that. You want, it's like our skin, like you want your skin to breathe. Okay. Like you don't want to be wearing your Lycra, as I know you do. Your Lycra tight outfits. Gary wears Lycra all the time, right? It's my favorite. Yeah, it's your favorite. So you don't want to be wearing that all the time because you're skin won't be able to breathe, right?
So it's the same thing with your fruit tree. They're fantastic in the winter, these protectors. what's the timeframe to put these on our trees and to take them off approximately? Yeah, that's a good question. we put them on here in Ontario, like in October when we're wrapping up, let's say September, October, when we are putting the orchard to bed, we will put the wrappers on and then, we take them off, in the spring, let me just think. yeah, before it starts to get rainy and wet. Okay, now, the protectors that you're referring to, are they only for fruit trees, or could they be for trees in general? Oh yeah, they can be for all young trees. All young trees. Yeah, they're awesome for that. Once a tree has matured, that's not necessary anymore?
Once a tree has matured, what we do, Is we paint the trunks of the trees. Has anybody, I'm just wondering if any of the listeners have actually ever done this. Do you ever paint your fruit tree's trunk white? I'm gonna go, I just got a really cute email from Hannah. I don't know where you're from, Hannah.
Hannah says, rabbits are the worst. Yes, they can be. They can be. is this a special paint? You know what? You use latex paint, house paint, basically, water based, of course, and you dilute it. 50 percent white latex paint, and you dilute it with 50 percent water, and you paint the trunks of your trees.
So that does two things. And how far up should you go? Right up, at least with fruit trees. to the lowest branches in the canopy. And hopefully you're pruning your fruit tree properly. So you know how to structure it. But the lowest branches, that could be pretty tall. Yeah, it can be pretty tall. But fruit trees, we prune them properly to keep them compact.
So I would say, you're going to be for like three, four feet up. OK, yeah, maybe three. Interesting. And any latex paint will work. But it's got to be white, though. It's got to be white. So it does two things. A. Amazingly, it protects your tree trunk from sunburn. Tree trunks get sunburn, and when that happens, they crack, and then there's an opening for pest and disease.
So that's one thing that happens. And what's the other thing that happens? It also protects your tree from crawling insects crawling up the tree. They don't like the paint. They don't like it. It's slippery for them. And their little crawling insect bug eyes Don't like white. So they're like, oh my god, I forgot my little bug sunglasses, right?
Like they if they don't have little bug sunglasses, they're not gonna crawl up the little bug tree By the way For those of you who don't have my book growing urban orchards will tell you all about this and other tricks and techniques with your fruit trees young and old and if I may just again because There's a lot of people, I'm sure, that are listening that do not paint their trunks of their fruit trees, maybe because they didn't know about it or the procedure or how to do it.
But again, I'm, very curious about that. So when you, paint your tree, do you do just one coat or do you put a couple of coats on? Do you have to really dab it in? What, what happens? That's a really good question. So do it on a sunny day in the summer, when it's sunny, whatever. And dry and just one coat is fine.
Just paint it white. cause you know what Gary, when we, saw those caterpillars, the gypsy moth caterpillars, what I noticed is we hadn't painted our, the trunks of our trees for a few years and. Where were the caterpillars? They were stuck to the plastic wrapper, the tree protector, but they were also in the cracks where there was no white paint.
they thought their little caterpillar eyes, if caterpillars have eyes, I don't know. But, they thought this is a more comfortable, less slippery place to be. And we were talking about rabbits. Now, I don't know, I'm not a rabbit. And Hannah, maybe I know you know rabbits very well because you wrote me an email here.
I'm not a rabbit, but I would think chewing on paint covered tree trunk might not taste good. No, I would think I don't know. Have you ever, Gary, chewed on a painted tree trunk? No, I have not. Who knows what I Not recently, at least. No, not recently. yeah. It makes sense, right? And we want to stress that the white is the color.
Don't I think you have some latex paint laying around from painting your bedroom. Don't do rainbow. They don't like it. It's not going to work as good and do not use anything oil based. No oil based paint. And do not use bathroom paint, which has horrible chemicals in it, which could be very bad. Oh my god, don't use that.
Now, I just want to, this show is about the good side of animals in your orchard.
[00:11:24] The Benefits of Using Rabbits in Your Garden
So let us take a moment and talk about how you can use rabbits in a positive way. Gary, do you remember the Flintstones? I do. Folks listening, do you remember the Flintstones, and do you remember that, Fred had a car, and how did he move around in his car?
His feet. He had to start it with his feet. Okay. So there are special boxes that, we were going to learn about today, but, that you can put your bunny Your personal bunny in a box and that little guy or girl will run around and move the box around and it will mow your grass and eat your weeds for you because that's what bunnies do.
They eat grass, they eat weeds, they eat all sorts of stuff, right? It's a bunny tractor and so in that case the bunny will offer really useful services to you. So bunnies can be harnessed to be useful. And these boxes you're talking about, are they made by a gardener or are they made available commercially?
Like you can buy them. You know what? That's a really good question. Know that there are people that do build them themselves. Okay. but yeah, why not? So I just love this idea that the bunny gets to go where he or she wants. But the box will prevent him or her from nibbling on the trunk of the tree because it can't get that close.
It's got a box around it. Okay, yeah, that makes sense, but you would, the, so the bunny would go in this box because they're attracted, maybe because there's food in the box? No, because the food is down, it's the grass. So this box has sides and a top, but it has no bottom. So your bunny is lounging around, I think you guys need to buy a bunny.
No, my daughter Rebecca consistently says she wants a bunny, but I don't know, honestly, Gary. Oh, think of all the hours you spend mowing the grass. Yeah. Wouldn't you like Fluffy to do that for you? Either that or a goat, yeah. we can talk about goats too. Hopefully we can talk about goats because they are actually could be very useful in your orchard for reasons such as that.
So the downside of bunnies, in a box is they don't actually eat insect pests and some animals do. So Fluffy the bunny won't help you in that way. And where I live and I'm sure you as well, we see rabbits consistently in our yard and they are nibbling at stuff and they are eating things.
you talk about perhaps weed control, that may be a good thing, right? Absolutely, but the problem is, you just want to keep them out of your hosta bed or whatever, do you know what I mean? Of course. So you really have to figure out where you're putting these bunnies. Really, it's about grass and weeds, I would think.
Not that this is not something I have personal experience with. Again, for those of you who are listening, I'd love to hear from you. What is your experience with animals in your orchard? Why don't you send us an email? inStudio101@gmail.com and we will read your message. Okay, so I have a message here from Serena in Tennessee.
Okay, so this is what Serena writes. I raise both sheep and rabbits. But I primarily keep the rabbits around the garden and alleyways where I've planted fruit trees, because I can scoot their tractor right up next to the trunk of the tree and let them mow or weed around it. Whereas, if I put the sheep's electronet too close to a tree, I often have sneaky lambs who stick their head right through the squares of the fencing to defoliate my trees.
The rabbits also require much more attention as far as filling water bottles, moving them two to three times a day refilling the feeder, etc. The other nice thing about rabbits in tractors is that they mow the grass really short, which I want around the edge of the garden to discourage voles. Our garden and fruit is just for family consumption.
I do sell pasteurized meat, so I don't worry about the laws around manure. So that's really interesting. Gary, historically I, don't know how well you know the Bible. Guys, how I don't know how well you folks know the Bible. I know it pretty well. You know it pretty well. Shepherds and Orchards?
Anything in the Bible about that? Yes, there are, there is actually. Yeah, so what do you know? I, gotta think back, but a lot of it, there's some in the Old Testament and some in the New Testament. you mean shepherds watching their flock? Yeah, like that kind of thing. Yeah, I don't know. I put you on the spot, haven't I?
Yeah, no, because I'd have to think of verses in books and all that stuff. Yeah, exactly. Verses in books. But the point is that this has happened for a long, time.
[00:16:17] Sheep in Orchards and Heavy Equipment Concerns
So when I was doing my pre interview with Joel, and we were chatting, he loves having sheep in his orchard. He's got a small orchard.
And He says the difference between having sheep in your orchard and cows in your orchard is huge because cows are so big and heavy that they will crush the root systems of your fruit trees. So for instance, yesterday I went to our orchard park and I noticed that there's a construction crew that drove one of their little trucks right into the park and planted right beside, parked it right beside one of our fruit trees.
And so these fruit trees are young, and even older trees, when you put something heavy on the roots of your tree, you will kill those roots, there's no question about it. Really? Yeah. then the other roots on the other side of the tree will have to compensate. Heavy stuff around the roots of your fruit trees, or any other trees, is a bad idea.
and it's funny you say that, because There's a lot of times in a lot of municipalities that I go around when I'm driving or visiting or on business and I see a lot of these new trees, these plantings. And these people always have equipment parked backhoes, bulldozers, heavy bricks, the whole thing.
And you just got to wonder about that, right? Yeah. Yeah. It's just, I think people, when they see trees in general, they, think in terms of this is decoration. They don't think that this is actually a living thing. And that's very sad. especially when it comes to fruit trees, it's this concept of they're beautiful, they give us shade, they feed us, they give us food, and Let's just leave them alone and not care for them, but actually they're living things and they do need hands on care.
[00:18:05] Introduction to Joel Salatin and Rabbit Tractors[00:18:05]
So Our guest today on the show is Joel Salatin of Polyface Farms in Virginia. Joel, tell me something. We were talking, in the first part, we talked a bit about bunnies in the orchard and rabbits. And you had told me about these rabbit tractors. Can you tell me, do people build them themselves or do you go and buy them somewhere in the market?
[00:18:25] Building and Using Rabbit Tractors
It's a small subset, you don't buy these. We build them and they're out of wood, and about three feet wide, six feet long. very light, built out of little, almost, lath material, just, Two by two type stuff. The floor is one half inch by one inch lath pieces. And that keeps the rabbits from digging out.
the problem with, rabbits as opposed to chickens is that they dig. And if they do get out, a chicken, you can just run down. But a rabbit, if they get out, they're, a lot quicker than you are. And you'll probably never catch them, except with a 22 or something. So these little shelters are small.
the, slats, this lath floor, allows them to access about 70 percent of the grass. And so they, they will eat a tremendous amount of, of forage. So basically, they're free to move around. Is it like Fred Flintstone, where their little feet can push them forward, and they, you actually see them moving alone, or do you have to move the boxes for them?
Oh, no, we, move the box. We, move the shelter. But it's so light. the whole shelter only.
In these kinds of systems, it's much better to make small modules. And repetitive modules then make large modules, Where you try to get a lot more animals in one thing, it's much better to have small modules, so you get a little more flexibility.
[00:20:24] Water and Feeding Systems for Rabbits
Now what about water? is there, is it like a, little cage where you would have their little water bottles so they can drink when they need to drink?
I guess they certainly don't need snacks because the grass is their snack. they have a feeder. like I say, they will pick up. 70%, 75 percent of their diet on the grass, but, they do, need some concentrate. And we have a feeder on the edge, as well as a waterer. We have a little, bucket sitting on top that just gravity feeds down to a nipple.
And, and so they can access the nipple and the water buckets on top. Okay, so if there's a water bucket on top, it means you don't have to come back every hour and refill it. that's right. Oh, they can go a couple days.
[00:21:12] Finding Rabbit Tractor Designs
Do you have a design for this in one of your books, or do you find a design for it online?
It's probably online. I, don't know where it is specifically. Oh, you told me you're not a big online guy, I'm not. But I am confident that there are pictures of it, I'm sure, on YouTube, on seminars we've done. People who have visited. I have pictures of it when I do my PowerPoint presentations when I, speak at, do, lectures and things.
You know what? here's, what's great. and actually, sorry, we just got an email from Ron who asked the same question. Ron, great minds think alike. He says, What are these rabbit boxes called and are there plans online to build it? Thanks. So what are the boxes called? Are they just called rabbit boxes?
ha. we call them hare pens. Oh, hare pens, . I like that. yeah, so maybe, you guys, if you do email me a picture, I can put it on our Facebook page or, on the website so people who, listen to the podcast after they can have a look at what these hare pens look like. So that'll be fun now.
[00:22:27] Introduction to Chickens in Orchards
Moving on from rabbits, chickens, here in Toronto we can now have chickens in certain parts of Toronto. We're allowed to have chickens in our backyards for eggs and stuff. are they useful in your, around your fruit tree? yes they are. the beauty of chickens is that they're the most aggressive, scratchers and peckers, but that's also their downfall, because if you have your trees nicely mulched, That sort of thing. They will scratch every bit of that mulch out, searching for worms and bugs and things like that. it's a kind of catch 22 situation. we like to put a raised bed border, boards or something around our fruit trees with mulch.
and that helps to keep the chickens from being able to scratch stuff out. Gives you a little bit of a, a, wall there, a fence, even if it's only, even if it's only 8 inches or 12 inches high, it at least gives you a little bit of protection there. but, as far as actually, aggressively removing dropped fruit, which of course is where most of your pathogens and things live.
and actually aggressively working at, debugging, the orchard, nothing beats chickens. You just have to realize that they can be problematic if they scratch too heavy around the tree.
[00:24:03] Managing Chickens and Other Poultry
One of the beauties of things like ducks, and even turkeys for that matter, ducks and turkeys don't scratch as aggressively.
And so they Don't have that problem Aha, so here's the difference between the rabbits and your poultry is Rabbits are cute and they eat the greens, but they don't eat the bugs and when you get your chickens and your turkey They'll eat the bugs. They'll eat the fallen fruit, which like you say has pathogens has insects inside it They'll gobble up all our potential problems That sounds wonderful.
That sounds so good. I've got an email from Tom. I don't know where Tom's from, but Tom says, do these boxes work for other animals? So we had been discussing your hare pen. So you don't have to put chickens in a chicken pen, do you? When they're out in the orchard? No, that's a great question. yeah, these, little movable, cages or shelters.
If you will, we like to call them shelters because that's more politically correct. If you call them cages or pens, then people think they sound like prisons and penitentiaries. so we're thinking, control and protection. So shelter works better. but yeah, they're, they're two ft high, very small.
You could certainly put a couple of chickens in one as well as, a litter of rabbits. That would certainly be fine. You could put, a couple of ducks in one. the beauty of the portable shelter is that it gives you protection and control. because when you're with animals, they need to be moved around.
If you, have a, a 12 tree orchard, for example, and you just fence that for chickens and turn chickens into it and they get access to it every day. pretty soon they're going to wear a dirt spot, a dirt path. It's going to be worn down. But if you put them in a shelter and move them around so that, there's rest and impaction, Then, you can put the same number of chickens, but you're going to have a much healthier. cover and ecosystem by moving those animals around.
[00:26:25] Benefits of Animal Manure in Orchards
Now, there's one benefit that we haven't really discussed yet. And that's manure, their poop, basically. when I was thinking about it, I was thinking, look, if I'm mulching my fruit trees with like sheep manure, or whatever, I would never use
uncomposted manure, it would burn, it would burn the roots of my fruit trees, so it's just too strong. but these animals are eating and I guess pooping in their boxes. So is there any concern about having this sort of raw composted manure around the trees? I would simply ask anybody, do you have any birds in your orchard?
Do you have any rabbits in your orchard? Do you have any trees in your orchard? most people who have an orchard see wild animals come through all the time. The reason that those wild animals are not the kind of problem that you would see, from domestic livestock is two fold. One, one reason is that their manure, that they're not in confinement, so they're not getting, they don't have The high pathogenicity that confinement raised livestock has.
and the second thing is that because they're at low levels, the ecosystem can metabolize it. We, interestingly, we had a University of North Carolina, UNC, veterinary student come up and do a study on, on salmonella in our fields where we've had, intensive commercial poultry for 50 years and she picked another farm nearby that hadn't had a chicken on in 50 years and wanted to study the difference in the latent salmonella in the soil strata.
And, The interesting thing and actually very surprising for us was we had no more than the one that hadn't had chickens on it in 50 years. And the reason is because we're moving. We're moving them around all the time. for example, the broilers, the meat chickens only get a square yard one day a year.
So it's one day on and a year of rest. And that's what these modular shelters allow you to do, and that recreates the kind of movement and in and out template that we see with the wild animals. That makes so much sense because also when I am mulching my trees with manure, I'm literally putting it on like an inch thick.
And it is right above the roots of the tree, whereas when these, rabbits or other animals are moving around in different places, they may be further from the tree. the nutrients will come with the rain and stuff like that, but like, you say, this is not just intensive spreading a layer of poop all over your orchard. It's interesting, Joel. Actually, we have, I have listeners, from all over the world. and interestingly, we have a listener in India, Satish. And so Satish wrote an email. I don't know if you will be able to answer it, but let's see what he says.
[00:29:40] Dealing with Predators and Pests
He says, My uncle set up a chicken coop in the orchards and started with some chickens.
The chickens are doing okay, but he is concerned that they are attracting snakes. Can you ask Joel about snakes and ideas on handling snakes specifically in the tropics? That would be great. I know you don't live in the tropics, but, do you have any experiences, snakes at all where you live?
yeah, we certainly do have snakes. I guess my, I, it's not clear to me, are the snakes eating the chickens, or the snakes eating the eggs. The chickens play. Oh, I see. I, that's a, pretty big difference there. a snake that will eat a chicken, if it's a full grown chicken, and of course the chicken then there's always the question of, are these little chicks?
Or, are these full grown chickens? A snake that will eat a full grown chicken, that's a pretty big snake. we certainly have a lot of snakes here, but we don't have anything more than about, seven feet long, the black snakes and things. And they would never eat a chicken. They would eat a chick, and they would eat an egg.
But what we have found is, again that by moving the animals around, it keeps the, it keeps predators, which, snakes are one, a little bit off balance because the animals are moved around. Another thing is that we keep the grass relatively short. Now, of course, we have cows and sheep and things, so we can graze.
of course, you can mow as well, but we can graze ahead of the chickens or around the chickens. So that we don't have real, tall grass where predators like that can slither in. Predators love cover. They don't want to get out and expose themselves. And short grass in the direct vicinity there can be a real help.
That sounds very interesting and that makes a lot of sense. we have another email here from Amanda. Amanda. Is from the Giving Grove. Amanda asks, how rodent predator proof are the rabbit chicken tractors?
Are they a feasible option for urban orchards where stray dogs can be a common occurrence? Thank you, Amanda. I'm also thinking in terms of raccoons here as well. yeah, couldn't a dog or raccoon knock these things over and, say, Hey, this is lunch. again, this is, this is how well they're built.
and so I got two things to say. One is, while these shelters are extremely light, They do require some maintenance. if the wire on the edge, we use one inch poultry netting, if that gets, rusty and brittle, So it's easy to break or crack or gets old and rusty, Then, of course, it needs to be replaced.
And this is not a once and forever deal. These, shelters that we build will Pretty much last maintenance free for, oh, maybe four years. And then you have to replace the wire or something like that. But, they don't cost anything.
they're just, little, scrap pieces of wood and some netting and a little piece of roofing on top. So it's not like there's much money in them. It sounds like a great experiment. Secondly, I would say on the rabbits, one of the beauties of rabbits, as opposed to any kind of poultry.
Except maybe waterfowl. One of the beauties of rabbits is that they are nocturnal. So the rabbits are also active at the same time the predators are active. Most predators are active at night. And Whereas a chicken will just, go to a roost and get pretty stationary and immobile when all these things are going bump in the night.
The rabbits are also going bump in the night. And so when something comes around, they respond. They go to the other side of the shelter. they squeal. They, they're active. they try to get away. they don't just sit there and get eaten or bit. And so the rabbits, just because of their, nocturnality, they have a built in kind of a predator, deterrent just because of their nocturnality.
They're, nighttime activity. Interesting.
So Joel, I wanted to ask you, do you ever have any animals visiting your orchard that do more harm than good that you don't really want there? certainly the, deer are the number one, number one problem, especially for young. they're not so bad once trees get big, but boy, until trees are, seven or eight feet tall, deer are, certainly number one, and dogs can certainly help.
Of course, a lot of people fence orchards. There are electric fence borders that work quite well. As far as domestic stock, I would not want to put a pig in an orchard, because pigs can do a lot of damage to tree roots and even nip at bark. Most of the time, historically, the favorite animal in an orchard was a sheep.
They mowed them. But even sheep or horses or cows, if they're mineral deficient, they can crib the trunk. And cribbing is when an animal nibbles, takes their teeth and nibbles away at the bark. And, on any kind of domestic stock, that can usually be eliminated simply with a good mineral program.
And, so, if you're trying to put animals in your orchard, and they're cribbing, just Put some more money in good minerals and that'll probably stop. And that would stop.
[00:36:02] Handling Squirrels and Other Urban Pests
Also the other problem that we have here in the city are smaller animals like, like squirrels. So I've got an email here from Bob in Guelph.
So Bob starts off by saying, Any tips for saving my pears and nectarines from the squirrels? He writes a little bit more later. He says, I've been encouraging people to grow their own fruit trees through my involvement in the Guelph Community Orchard Project. I would like to be able to offer some solutions about the pesky squirrels who watch us all care for our trees so that they can come and eat the fruit before we do.
I have tried plastic owl, dangling pie plates, plant skid, which is the anti deer spray, I think, with mixed results, mostly futile. He says, this year I'm trying freezer bags over single fruit or clear garbage bag over the end of the each branch, I guess for smaller fruits, if there is multiple fruit in one area.
So some of the fruits he said have just dropped off, some are hanging on and getting bigger. He says, I also have chicken wired the end of one branch, lots of experiments. As any solution has to be simple so that it's relatively easy for the hobbyist, amateur, enthusiast to implement.
my comment for Bob is orchard socks. they do deter insects, and I find that squirrels, when you put these little sockettes, over the growing baby fruit, it does prevent squirrels, like the squirrels take a bite and they're like, Ew, this tastes like pantyhose, and they are discouraged.
temporarily. So orchard socks are also called maggot barriers. They're nylon little sockettes you put on your fruit. But Joel, what would you suggest? Is there anything that you can suggest here for Bob? My great suggestion is squirrel stew. Ha I think that's a great idea. Do you actually You know, of course, in an urban setting it gets a little problematic sometimes to go out and Start shooting them, or in Canada, where it's hard to get a gun, you can get one pretty easily here in the U.
S. But, you can trap. There are certainly traps you can get, and then you can kill them and eat them for dinner. It's funny, but I'm serious that all of this kind of wildlife stuff, we've certainly dealt with it a lot with pastured poultry. And, and all of us are in a context, and the truth is that in some of these urban situations, we simply have an overabundance of certain things, whether it's deer or squirrels or, whatever.
And and in the wild, those things would be handled with coyotes, foxes, wolves, whatever, carnivorous predators. And, but we don't have those as much in the city. And we have to be that carnivorous predator. trapping, certainly, certainly a very aggressive cat.
Sometimes a house cat. We've certainly had cats catch squirrels. cats, will catch rabbits as well. and that drives the wildlife people crazy, But I'm not talking about feral cats. I'm talking about your own cat. We have cats here that keep the rats and mice down, and sometimes they'll bring in a, small rabbit or a squirrel.
I don't know how good a dog would be, but I can imagine that a dog could be, trained, although when the squirrel runs up the tree, the squirrel's out of the reach of the dog, and the squirrel's gonna learn pretty quickly that they're not out of the reach, not vulnerable anymore, so they just go on about their business.
those are just some, but my main thing is whether you use a gun, a trap, an air pellet, a pellet gun, a crossbow. Oh my goodness, you guys, yeah. In the country, yeah, you totally get it. But I have to know, does squirrel stew actually taste any good? Is it okay?
Or does it need a lot of spices? Yeah, the old, Brunswick stew, the Hunter's Brunswick stew had, what was it, five different meats, a bird, a rabbit, a squirrel, a venison, I don't know what all. turkey, anyway, I think it was five different kinds of meats, with the official Brunswick stew, yeah, squirrel is wonderful to eat.
And, the thing is, as soon, as you bring that population down into its normal population density, Then a lot of those things will ease off. yeah, makes sense. I think that's our problem in the city is just we don't have that ecological balance.
And I think that the more that, people plant fruit trees or plant native trees and attract wildlife and bring the insect population into a healthy balance with more beneficials then the healthier our planet will be, the healthier our cities will be.
So I think what you're saying is logical. and, yeah, it makes a lot of sense. So we have something here in the cities to aspire to, that's for sure.
[00:41:29] Conclusion and Final Thoughts
I can't believe it, Joel, our show is. It's coming to an end, and I so appreciate that you managed, I don't know what happened, but I'm so thrilled that you managed to get on the show so we could chat with you a little bit.
Yes, thank you. I apologize, I was here, but when he didn't call back I couldn't get the phone number, and so I was just stymied as to how to proceed, but anyway, I'm glad we made connection. We made a connection, and I So appreciate it. I'm sure the listeners really appreciate it. So thank you so much.
Joel Salatin of Polyface Farms in Virginia. Where can people learn a little bit more about you? Do you guys have a website? And we do. It's polyface P O L Y F A C E. polyfacefarms, all lowercase, polyfacefarms. com. Okay, perfect. So people can go check it out. You've got talks, you've got videos on there, and hopefully, let's make sure you've got some really good things about these little, animal shelters that are movable, because I think it's a great idea.
They're on there. That's fantastic. everybody, that's it for today's episode of the Urban Forestry Radio Show. Thank you so much to Joel. Thanks so much, and we'll see you soon. And I hope all you listeners enjoyed the show. If you like it, there's lots more information on my website at OrchardPeople.
com. You can also check out my blog where there's articles about fruit tree care. You can find out about my book, Growing Urban Orchards. And you can learn lots more. thanks for listening. Come back again next month. We're going to have more great information. You've been listening to the Urban Forestry Radio Show on Reality Radio 101.
I'm Susan Poizner from OrchardPeople. com and thank you so much for tuning in. I'll see you next month.
You've been listening to the Urban Forestry Radio Show on Reality Radio 101. To learn more about the show and to download the podcast where I cover lots more great topics, you can visit OrchardPeople. com. This show is broadcast live on the last Tuesday of every month, and each time I have great new guests talking to me about fruit trees, food forests, and arboriculture.
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Thank you so much for tuning in. It's been wonderful to have you as a listener. And I hope to see you again next time.
Thank you for listening to the Urban Forestry Radio Show with your host, Susan Poizner. Right here on Reality Radio 101.