Orchard People

[00:00:00] Introduction and Welcome
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Welcome to the Urban Forestry Radio Show here on Reality Radio 101. In this radio show and podcast, we learn about fruit trees, permaculture, aboriculture, and so much more. So if you love trees, and especially fruit trees, or if you're interested in living a more sustainable life, then this is the place for you.
I'm your host, Susan Poizner of the fruit tree care training website, OrchardPeople. com. Thanks for tuning in.
Welcome to the Urban Forestry Radio Show with your host, Susan Poizner. To contact Susan live, right now, send her an email. Instudio101@gmail.com
And now, right to your host of the Urban Forestry Radio Show, Susan Poizner. Hi, everyone.
[00:01:39] Susan's Experience with Buck Rub
Earlier this year, I went to Roanoke, Virginia, to teach a group of arborists, foresters, and community tree volunteers the secrets of fruit tree care. Now, as part of the talk, we did a pruning demonstration, and I went out to the tree that I would be working with, and saw a really strange scratch on the trunk.
You know what that is, right? One of the participants said to me. And actually, I didn't. I was baffled. It's buck rub, he laughed. We get a lot of that around here. Buck rub, I learned, is when a male deer or a buck rubs his antlers against a tree to mark his territory and to rub the velvet off his antlers.
Now, if you're a fruit tree and you get rubbed, that's not necessarily a good thing as any tree wound can be a place where fruit tree pests and diseases enter your tree. Now, I live in a big city and we don't really have a lot of deer roaming around our streets, but we do have other critters that damage our trees and our gardens, like raccoons and squirrels.
Hey, even rabbits can cause major damage. Those guys are cute, but they can seriously damage your fruit trees and garden.
[00:03:01] Introducing Rhonda Massingham Hart
in today's show, we'll find out how we can protect our gardens from these little critters, and large critters. who's better to talk to than Rhonda Massingham Hart? She's the author of a book called Deer Proofing Your Yard and Garden.
And she also wrote a book called Squirrel Proofing Your Home and Garden. And she's been in a years long battle to protect her garden from wildlife. Now she thinks she's just about figured out the solution, and we're going to find out more about that in a little bit. But before we start chatting, I would love to hear your questions and your comments for Rhonda.
Now if you're listening to the show live, Do send us an email at instudio101 at gmail. com and we'll do our best to answer your question and to put your comment on the show. And of course, keep listening because later on in the show, you'll have an opportunity to win a copy of Rhonda's excellent book.
But first she's on the line with me right now. How are you today, Rhonda? Susan, thank you for inviting me to join you today. I am so happy to have you on the show because you are clearly a person with much experience in the battle with the critters. How, exactly has that come about? is it where you live?
Do you just have a lot of critters that really like to eat things in your garden where you live?
[00:04:32] Rhonda's Gardening Challenges
Oh, the mistakes I've made. That's how it's come about. I have, my first real garden was about, oh, maybe 10 miles from where I'm sitting now. And when I say real garden, it was this big area with a big fence around it.
And I thought I had landed in heaven. And that's where the learning process began. And that goes from there. It always starts with mistakes, doesn't it? Everything I learn is from a mistake. It's always embarrassing, but Now is it true, you've got to tell me, on the back of your book it says that you live somewhere in between Deer Park and Elk, Washington.
Is that, made up or is that true? That's true! Okay, so I can see why Deer There should be a town called Moose just to the north of me, but there doesn't happen to be one. Okay, you have those two coming to visit you in your garden? Where I am currently, I'm a good five or six miles from the nearest group of elk, but we certainly have our share of deer and occasionally moose, yes.
Okay, so really, ultimately, now I don't have deer roaming around in my part of Toronto in Canada. right in the city, though we have some deer on the outskirts, but not where I live. So what does it look like? What kind of damage do deer do? In gardens or with fruit trees or whatever. How bad is it?
[00:06:06] Deer Damage and Protection Strategies
it depends so much on the maturity of fruit trees is the damage that they'll actually do. The older trees, we actually have To farmhouse is one we inherited. It has established for trees. You really don't see too much. And what you do see comes later in the season when they're reaching up for ripe fruit.
but the younger trees you mentioned the pure rub. anything from that to just snapping off. The breakage is so clearly deer damaged because they'll snap it off and there's a little raggedy edge where their teeth didn't quite make a clean cut, and they'll just, half the time they'll just take a bite.
They spit it out if they don't like it, and bite something else, and move on down the line. But if they like it, oh goodness, it's everything from just devouring your strawberries to stomping all over them. One year we had, figured it out after the fact that we had, apparently very pregnant dough laying down amongst the strawberries.
It looked like a great spot for, the night, And she smushed half of them. Oh, so she didn't even eat them. She was just relaxing there. She did a little bit of munching, but it was This time of year, or a little earlier, so they weren't totally ripe here, we have varying, seasons for this, that, and the other thing to get ripe, and it just cracked me up because I hadn't mowed.
All the way around the strawberry patches, there was some tall grass at the north end of it. And it just looked like a real safe spot for her to nestle down for the night. Oh my goodness. Now you were mentioning young fruit trees. And I've heard about browsing and, that deer actually, do they actually eat young branches?
Is that nutritious and delicious for them? They do. A lot of this stuff is dependent on so many factors. But when those young branches start to, But out especially is when they have more nutrition to them. they actually are more tender and I'm presuming they taste better. when they're at the bud to the just leafing out stage.
And depending on. Where you are and it sounds like your climate's pretty similar to ours. It's that stage when they're just coming outta winter and they're hungry, and these trees happen to be very tender and tasty at the same time. Yeah, that's pretty hard to resist. That sounds like dessert first.
Exactly. So it sounds like they go for branches. They go for fruit or berries. Is that true? what else do they eat? Flowers? what else do they, what else do they snack on?
[00:08:53] Listener Questions and Wildlife Solutions: What are deer thinking? It's all about survival!
It's funny, I was looking at this, I have to go back and tell you the deer proofing book, which I Now I cringed at that title because nothing's deer proof.
I haven't had plastic flowers in a container on the front porch. They didn't get eaten, but they got bitten and stomped and thrown around. I'm like, oh, how dare you lie to me with these fake flowers. I'm looking at this book and it's 20 years old. And the problem with something you wrote 20 years ago is you walk around slapping yourself in the forehead saying, oh, I was wrong about that.
Case in point, one of the plants on the list that says they don't eat is columbine. the pretty flowers that look like little hanging lanterns, Yeah. Yeah, they eat that too. Oh no, they do. Oh my gosh. the list of what they don't eat is a lot shorter than the list of what they do eat.
you have an interesting section. And it's just what do you need to know about deer in order to protect your garden from them? And one of the points, you make a bunch of really interesting points, but it's You need to know how deer think. Like, how do deer think? And what are they thinking when they're trying to munch on your plastic flowers?
I, that would probably be the one question I couldn't answer that one for you on a deer. it's all, seasonal, and it's all contextual. where I am here, this is fawning season, or a little bit past fawning season. So the does are a little more reclusive now that they've had, or are having their babies.
It's also when the velvet starts to form on the bucks. So their antlers are really tender, and they tend to stay more isolated and reclusive. Maybe they'll hang out with, one other buck. This is my reprieve for the year, and I know that, so I'm a little less vigilant, which, doesn't always pay off, but sometimes I get away with it.
What they are always thinking is survival, period. And that usually involves survival. not getting eaten by something else, and then finding whatever else they can eat, which they're willing to test just about anything as if plastic flowers would, testify. Yeah, it makes you feel so much compassion, where you live, is a quite, it's country ish kind of area, I'm guessing. Yeah, it's, my dream when I was a kid was my own farm way out in the middle of nowhere and, it took me 50 years to get here, but I'm pretty happy with it. We're very rural. Wow, lovely. Okay, so let's just have a few suggestions.
so how do you, and I know you're cringing when we say deer proof, but how do you protect your yard, your garden, and in particular your fruit trees? What, are some of the things that you explored and researched when you wrote that book? When I started this originally, I had two sources, three sources of information outside of my own very, limited experience at that point.
I had my friends and family. I had, I had boxes of old magazines, old gardening magazines that I went through. But the U. S. government put out, a huge tome. Something about, I can't remember the exact title, but it was something like, Wildlife Damage Mitigation. it went into everything from cougar predation on cattle ranches, to deer damage, to large scale, rodent infestations.
all, these different things. And that information came from the U. S. Land Grant Universities, who had funded studies. Of how to, mitigate all this wildlife damage. And of course, commercial orchards were, a huge part of this. So that's where I picked up a lot of the, deer ideas to try.
And some of them are really ingenious. and we can get into the details of those later. But coming up with the information was as much trial and error as it was research. But I think I told you earlier, I don't How the best memory so I just started writing all this stuff down and eventually you start to organize what you wrote down in the And then you have a book.
I learned that way too, actually. That's exactly how I learn. I have these experiences. I write them down. I tell the story. And then sometimes I just have to go and re read and okay, that's what I learned at that time. So I think you're not alone. In that, of course not. I think that's how we all do it, at least us writers, we like to do things that way.
And you are definitely, you've written quite a few books, so obviously you've done, you've done a lot of that. So let's get into a little nitty gritty. What are some of the most ingenious suggestions that you've come across? like I say, it depends on the context. We have the farmhouse that has.
I don't even know how old those fruit trees are. They're probably at least 50 years old, and they're mature. the bark isn't an issue. Some of the lower hanging leaves may or may not get nibbled, but you cannot tell because those trees are so mature. They have just gone past the point of being first on the menu, so to speak.
you flip over to the house I live in, which has the newer fruit trees. And, I got to admit, I have those fenced in to my, deer, Fort Knox. They're safe from deer. They can't reach them. but, aside from that, one of the most clever things I saw was a fence that was developed by, I want to say University of Minnesota.
don't kill me if I got that wrong. It was a, hot wire fence, like an electrical single strand. And on that, they took a simple piece of aluminum foil, and they would fold that foil over the hot wire strand. And the trick was, inside of that little bit of aluminum foil, they'd swab in a little bit of peanut butter.
It's something that was aromatic and tasty to the deer, that, oh, here, I'll have a taste of that. And as soon as that little wet nose or that wet tongue touched that little piece of tinfoil that was attached to that electric wire, It's like peanut butter. It's like peanut butter. It was really interesting, and the way my, editor at the time referred to it, she says it's like training deer, and she's right.
It teaches them that even though this smells good and might taste good, if you come past this line, you're going to get zapped. And for a lot of people, especially big commercial orchards, that was a genius. It was a lifesaver for their orchards. That's incredible. So a little bit of peanut butter on, in the electric fence and tied up together and, because if, the fence was there and there, it wasn't electric, would they find a way past?
why bother with the peanut butter and the zapping? Wouldn't they just come up to the fence and touch it and they would still get zapped? I guess it was based on the strategic placement of, because, you do remember to that deer are very habitual. They tend to take the same routes very frequently, so I'm thinking, especially when you're talking about a big commercial orchard, they had pathways that were more or less established, so they would put these little tempting treats, in their path, or they'd try it and turn back.
it's a good point, because a very few of these barrier type senses, that leave gaps, are effective in the long term, in my experience. Now, maybe somewhere else they work better, but I have a lot of deer pressure here. And what we have here are white tailed deer, which I'm pretty sure that's what you would have in your surrounding area as well.
And okay so, fencing. So in your book you talk about different types of fencing and what works and you've told us about this electric fence peanut butter situation which sounds really interesting. There are also sprays are there not? I mean can you not just spray your tree with something that the deer will find unappealing especially if it's a young tree and protect it in that way?
I have had some pretty good success with the sprays, but not on a large scale. if you only had one or two trees, and you are able to be out there and spray them, certainly after a rain, or if you have the new water with overhead sprinklers that wash off the leaves, keeping that spray fresh really does work pretty well.
The egg and garlic type sulfur sprays, those, they seem like they really do work at least here and there. personally what I have found is I've got a lot of things interplanted and this is my fruit trees are in my regular garden area, so other things that are outside of the regular garden area that I use that spray on.
It took me years and years to find plants that the deer wouldn't test, because even if they don't eat them, once they've tested them, they haven't done them any favors. And, having found plants that the deer won't test, I interplant. So brazenly, I interplant things that I love, like that columbine that I know the deer are going to snap at, but I spray those things with the sprays.
So they've got foxglove that they don't like, and ladies mandle that they don't like, and a handful of lavender that they despise, and, oh, there's my columbine, and they don't even really Look at it anymore, because it's been years and years of all this crap. Oh, that's disgusting. I won't eat that. And then something that smells bad in between.
So they keep moving until they get to the roses. Interesting. And that's very interesting. So essentially, you're disguising the stuff that you want to grow, that you want to keep them away from, with this stuff. And you've got your lists in your book of all these It's a plant that they just find very unappealing.
Now you mentioned roses and you had told me, that roses are like, and I'm a chocolate lover, roses are like chocolate for deer. So would this work with roses? It works. It's always the same answer. I guess it works in context because I have a whole bank of roses along the south side of my house. I had to wind up finally putting a fairly ugly fence around them and it was like so frustrating because the roses are there, because I love roses for the beauty of them.
And then you wind up putting a fence around it and it doesn't look as nice. But, where I only have one or two rose plants out in the mixed border, if I spray those, it does work. And like I say, you have to be out there pretty vigilantly so that you keep that spray fairly fresh. And, people can tell when you've sprayed it, because it's a clinging smell.
They, advertise it like, oh, the smell goes away and you won't notice it. And that's true as far as the rose bush or the plants go, but if you come in the house wearing it, people notice. Trust me. huh. They're like, oh, I don't want to hang around you. Oh boy, we have an interesting question from Jen from Kansas City.
So here's what she writes. She writes, love the show. I learned something new in every episode. I'm so glad you do Jen. That's great. She says, if you have time, I'd love it if you and Rhonda could talk specifically about voles and vole proofing fruit trees. We're fortunate to have very low deer pressure in our community garden and orchard.
But voles are a major problem. We've tried rat traps in boxes, wrapping the base of the trees in window screens, and providing perches for the local hawks. But we just can't keep up and would love some more ideas. So let's take a second, we'll come back to deer, but do you have any suggestions for Jen from Kansas City?
I have to confess that underground things, from moles to voles to ground squirrels to gophers, I have only once, and I don't like this at all, but I have only once resorted to these underground poisons. And there's so many reasons why. I don't like that. But in all honesty, it really was the most effective thing.
I've done all the same things that Jen mentioned, including digging out a 2x I think it was a 2x4. Four foot wide pit, lining it with hardware cloth, backfilling it, and planting cherries, one cherry tree into that particular one. We just wound up having to cut the tree down five or six years later because whatever got to the roots, got to the roots, and when we pulled out the dead, five inches around now, trunk, it was like.
Sometimes. I think maybe container planting is the answer, and it's, the only way you can get away with that is with the true dwarf varieties. I have other fruit trees in that garden space, but that one was the only one that was damaged, and I wonder if certain roots don't taste better to them.
And I'm wondering the same, because you have lots of different trees. Why did they go for that particular one? It was the most established tree out there, which would, you'd think, be the safest one because it would have more different branching root systems. So that would be something to research for me for an upcoming show or something, and just to see if anybody's done any research on root stock and vulnerability to these underground creatures.
Very interesting. That's a very good point, because there are only a handful of, grafted root stocks that are really pushed out there because they are so hardy and they're thrifty and all these other good things about them, and, some of them graft well. And I guess there's, root stock, stem stock, and fruiting stock.
Now you can have three different stocks on the same fruit tree. I think there's some potential for research there. That sounds interesting. Now, we have another, and this is a linked, so I'm going to go to this email as well. Shaw, this is from Prairie Drive Park Community Garden in Toronto. So we've got a lot of community gardeners.
today listening and Shaw says, last year we had lots of problems from ground hogs and rabbits that seriously damaged the growing produce. This year we've erected a fence at a deeper depth below ground level. Still, they tried to dig a hole, but at a deeper depth couldn't. Now we're protected and safe.
That's encouraging. What do you think about that? I've been so fortunate where I have been that I haven't had to deal with groundhogs and rabbits, but I have a friend, and that's basically what she wound up doing, she took a ditch, which I guess they call it, and they dropped that fence to a two foot depth, which just seems excessive, and she said it So far has worked, but the other thing she has tried, especially against rabbits and she's reporting success, so I'm going why somebody else has experienced her, as it's like a coyote urine smell thing, and it supposedly as of Very effective way to deter rabbits, in particular, and somewhat deer.
I'm not as sure about groundhogs, but, my go to plan for any of these problems when they first come up, and every year something else decides to invade the garden, is I try to make it as horrible as possible for myself, and usually that works to deter whatever the critter is. I kid you not, this idea of And I've seen some of the stuff that hunters use as well.
It just seems horrible and yet people say that it works as a deterrent. But personally the best look I've had has been with physical barriers. And so the other thing I might add for rabbits and ground squirrels, or sorry, ground hogs, might be, that electric wire again running. maybe six inches high is all, try not to trip over that because it's got to be at a level where if they touch it, they're grounded.
They can't be like climbing under it or hopping over it. Interesting. Oh, Jen responded and to your comment, she says, thank you. We have a lot of children at the garden, so we're hoping to avoid poison if we can. so I think that's a great idea. I think that's a great idea. I hated doing it. I have to confess.
It was like, Oh, weak moment that it, Not something I'd want around children or pets or even hawks and other wildlife. Catch those little vermin. Just goes to show how far you can be pushed, hey? I've one more quick question before we go to a little, some words from our sponsors. We've got a question from Cliff in Toronto.
This is interesting. He says, Does the coyote urine have to be male? I've heard of this, he says. Huh. I'm not the one personally collecting it, so I'm not sure if it matters. I don't think it would make a difference because there are, I've got a lot of coyotes out here and I have been fortunate enough to watch them.
a little bit now and again their behaviors and I will tell you females are fierce hunters and the whole point is to get them afraid of predation. Oh, I see. So that's the goal. I don't think it would matter to the gender. So Cliff writes again and he says does male human urine work and I guess that depends if the male has a big gun and is scary.
you're saying that basically the smell of the urine has to do with a predator. So it has to be Yeah, that's the whole point. So nobody, so we shouldn't be going and peeing on our gardens. That really won't make a difference. I, have read so many articles about, oh, human urine.
I'm like, oh, please don't do that. Oh my gosh. we have to open our minds to whatever it takes. and it doesn't, hurt the creatures. So you know what? I'm going to, remind all the listeners that we really would love to hear your questions, your comments. The email is in. Studio 101 at gmail.
com. Remember to include your first name, the city that you're writing from. And we so want to hear from you. So Rhonda, let's take a few minutes. We're going to hear some words from our sponsors.
[00:28:30] Sponsor Messages and Break
And then after that, we're going to go into more details about all the creatures can, that can wreak havoc in our gardens.
Let's talk about squirrels as well. Raccoons, rabbits. So you okay, holding the line for a moment. Oh, you bet. so much. Okay, hang in there. You're listening to the Urban Forestry Radio Show on Reality Radio 101. I'm Susan Poizner from the Fruit Tree Care Training website, OrchardPeople. com. We'll be back after this short break.
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Welcome back to the urban forestry radio show with your host, Susan Poizner, right here on reality radio. One on one send Susan an email right now in studio. One on one.
And now, right back to your host, Susan Poizner.
[00:32:49] Squirrel Proofing and Other Critters
You're listening to the Urban Forestry Radio Show on Reality Radio 101. I'm Susan Poizner from the Fruit Tree Care Training website, OrchardPeople. com. And in today's program, I'm chatting with Rhonda Massingham Hart, the author of Deerproofing Your Yard and Garden.
Now, in the first part of the show, we talked about deer and how to protect our fruit trees and gardens from deer damage. But of course, there are other smaller creatures that can make a serious mess out of our plants and trees. And for me, squirrels are at the top of the list. it's the way they take an apple from a tree or a tomato from your garden.
They take a bite. And then, after a defiant swish of their tail, they just leave the half eaten fruit behind. At least they should have the decency to eat the whole thing. Or at least tidy up after themselves. So do you have challenges with squirrels and other creatures in your garden? Tell us about it by sending us an email at instudio101 at gmail.
com and remember to give us your first name and location. In the meantime, back to Rhonda Massingham Hart. So Rhonda, tell me about your book on squirrel proofing your home and garden. So that you wrote before your deer proofing, book, is that correct? Oh, goodness, you asked me to remember something. It was about the same time I Oh, you wrote them at the same time.
A couple years after, to be honest. Okay, so, basically, again, at the same time you're having these deer challenges, what kind of stuff was happening with squirrels in your yard? thankfully, I am no longer in that particular spot, because it was in a very wooded area where the garden was just surrounded by What, trees, and I could not figure out for the life of me what was getting in this, summer, tomatoes, really nice red ripe tomatoes.
And something was like taking a bite or gnawing half of it and leaving it. And I thought, that's a lot of damage for a slug or, a smaller critter. And it was actually. My husband suggested it might be squirrels because we had them all over. We didn't even bother to put up bird feeders then.
And what we finally concocted was It sounds like so much bother for just a few plants, but what we had, those tomato, cages that people use. And of course the tomatoes had totally overflown, that. They were draping all over it.
[00:35:31] Building the Ultimate Tomato Cage
he wanted to build a cage, so we built this big cage, and I think it was like three feet.
square to put over each tomato plant because, technically the tomatoes were his territory. Okay, so the cage. It was a hardware cloth and it did save the rest of the tomatoes and it, and we had those for years. It was a big deal to build them, but so at that point we had forsaken the, the smaller little cages for the next couple of years.
They worked really well. they were a pain to build, but no squirrel will penetrate them.
[00:36:04] Protecting Rows of Crops and Fruit Trees
Now that's for one type of plant. What do you do for a whole row of crops or for fruit trees with squirrels? My best success has been, again, a barrier of physical exclusion, but they do also make, sprays, that work.
And again, back to the whole look, coyote, fox urine. market. So back to that urine thing.
[00:36:27] Using Urine-Based Sprays for Pest Control
So where you know, sorry, it all reveals, so it's back to urine. Okay. And, again, with this urine stuff, are you, is it a spray or is it a drizzle around your plants and trees thing, or how does that work? They do make a spray.
gosh, I don't want to get into brand names or anything, but they do make a spray that is marketed for deer, rabbit, squirrels, etc. But I don't think that's the urine based stuff. The urine based stuff that, at least I have seen on the market, was just little drops. You don't need a lot of it, thank you.
But little drops that were strategically placed around, the barrier of a garden.
[00:37:10] Innovative Garden Cages and Animal Behavior
I did have one other guy give me a good idea for, he built, basically the same idea of a cage, but he did it bed by bed, so his cages were, again, about three feet wide, but he built them, I think, eight feet long, and then he could attach them.
this is getting to be really hardcore, keeping out any kind of animal, but what he told me, and he worked at a garden store, and this has been, Five or six years ago, but he said the best part of it is, once you've used those cages for a couple of seasons, The deer, the rabbits, the squirrels, the above ground critters, basically, give up because they know those cages are there, they're not even going to bother, they've found something else to eat.
So a lot of it's based on their behavior as well as just an exclusionary barrier. That's really interesting. So there's some sort of memory communication. I just came up with this idea right now. So for instance, with deer, they're hungry, right? Those guys are hungry. You can't blame them for wanting to eat your garden.
So what if you were to find somewhere nearby, like a piece of land somewhere, and put a bunch of food out for the deer? And so you're saying that they found another place to eat. So put some food somewhere else, and then they'll just eat that food, I don't know, some rotten apples or whatever, and then they won't come into your garden.
What do you think?
[00:38:38] Feeding Wildlife: A Cautionary Tale
Can I tell you my story? Go on, tell me your story. I've got to hear what's the story. I am not a fan of attracting Any kind of damaging wildlife anywhere near either my food garden or my garden in my yard for ornamentals. And here's why. several years ago, we, have horses and I would throw hay to the horses in the wintertime.
And I feed a lot of hay. I feed a lot of good quality hay. And I was noticing that even though they were very furry, they looked like they were not really thrifty. They look like they were getting thin and in the winter time here, we have Very severe winters, as I'm sure you've experienced as well.
And it can be below zero and the wind can blow and there's snow and ice. And I'm very concerned. I want my horses in a good, fat, happy condition throughout the winter. So I throw more hay and I come out and I watch them eat. And there's several piles of hay. And out of the woods come these deer. And there's so many of them that the horses just back away and don't eat.
I'll show you, I'll put a little pile of grain out here, way away from the horses, so the deer will go to the grain instead. And the horses are seeing me put grain out and they're thinking, that's great, they get the grain, we just get the hay. the next night or two, it started off with like maybe two or three deer.
And that would come to the grain. And then there were four or five. 7 or 8 and I'm putting out more piles and I'm out there in the snow stomping down the snow to make a nice little flat spot for the deer to enjoy their grain so that my poor horses can have something to eat. Over the course of about 3 or 4 weeks, I was pouring out a 50 pound bag of grain.
every night in about 20 different piles. I don't know how they do it, but it started with a few deer and it came down to, I lost count at 60 or 65. Oh, you're kidding. And, so my rationale is, unless you want to attract them, the only way you're going to really distance them from your garden is to go Far away, a quarter mile might do it, and your neighbors are really going to hate you if you're not adapting to their garden.
So those guys, those deer, were communicating with each other, they're saying, hey guys, we found an amazing grain pile, and come join us, come and share. How community minded. Don't you think? That's exactly what I was thinking. if I, if you gave me some dark chocolate, really fine quality dark chocolate, I'm sorry, I probably wouldn't invite five of my closest friends to share it with me.
I would probably keep it for myself. So let's say this looks good on the deer. If we maintain that stance, they don't see the bears, even if they're deer. okay, so that's not the solution.
[00:41:46] Listener Email: Protecting Young Fruit Trees
We've got an email from Tom from San Diego, California. And Tom says, Hi, Susan and Rhonda. Great show. Amazing information.
Thank you for the insight. thank you, Tom. That's lovely. Thank you for emailing us. That's very kind. I appreciate that. Yeah, so there you go. You've got to come on the show again sometime, Rhonda. okay, so let's see what else I wanted to ask you. We were talking about little critters, and I have a story about bunnies.
So bunnies are cute. I like bunnies. They're all good, except that I was involved in planting an orchard in Scarborough, Ontario, so not far from Toronto, and the soil was amazing. It was like chocolate. Pudding. It was so rich, and I had it tested. It was beautiful soil. We planted the whips, the young fruit trees.
They grew beautifully throughout the summer. it was magical. And then the winter happened, and I didn't visit the site because I was doing other things. There were people supposedly keeping an eye on it. So what happened was, I come back the next spring and All the trees had been girdled. They had been nibbled on all around these young trees, these beautiful, young, thriving trees.
so they'd been nibbling, something was nibbling around the base of the tree. Do you think it could be rabbits? And what would you suggest in this, in this kind of situation? it could have been rabbits, but it also could have been any of these little critters that winter underground and they can come up and Find a quick meal and run back downstairs to sleep it off.
But, I'm sure, the classic thing we do, especially for young fruit trees, is we can wrap the base of them. I really am a big fan of this hardware cloth because nothing gets through it except, insects and air. And, I've been, when the first ones I planted, I put the wrap just Hardware, you know what this is, but I keep mentioning it.
No, describe it to me. What is it? It's a very fine mesh wire. Oh, it's a wire. Dirty. Okay. So it's a wire cloth. And I've wrapped that around the base of the trees, but I wrapped it, it came in a three foot length, a three foot width, so I wrapped it three feet around the tree. I was like, fine. You guys are going to attack my tree wherever you can get to it.
I have seen ground squirrels climb up the heights. three feet on that wire, climb it, ground squirrels. And those guys can really jump, too. after that height, I actually wrap some of the plastic wrap around from there up. And again, it's, it's only those first two or three years when they're very tender.
The older they get, the harder it is for the small critters to chew through the bark. Bigger critters like horses, I have learned, can chew through just about anything. That's a whole other story, so don't turn your horses out in your orchard when the trees are young. But, that's it for me, is barrier exclusion.
I know that the sense work, the problem in winter, And you are overriding two very primal survival instincts, the fear of predators versus hunger. So if they're out and about in the wintertime, those sprays just aren't nearly as effective as they are in the spring when they have other options.
So for me, it's always going to be physical barriers. Physical barriers. Now you talk about that hardware cloth, which is like a wire mesh cloth. And you said you wrap it around, but you don't wrap it around like a plastic spiral, wrapper that goes right up to the trunk of the tree.
No, You got me on that. You're right. It's like you form a tube close to the trunk, but not, you don't have to be touching it. Because if you're touching it, then their little teeth can get through those faces and get through them. Three feet tall. Okay. The first few years, that's what I did. I wrapped the plastic wrap all the way around the top.
Above where the hardware cloth was to a height of maybe, I'm trying to remember, maybe 6 or 8 inches higher. And this is, you're talking about a lot of work and some expense, but I only had, I think I had 8 trees that year. it was an afternoon project. If someone has a lot of trees that can get, to be a lot of work and a lot of expense.
But I'll tell you what, once you've gotten through those first few years, you'll thank yourself. Absolutely. And so what about the white spiral, guards for trees? Do you now believe in those, using those in the winter, taking them off in the summer? would they stop the nippling on the bark? I've, had pretty good luck with them, but like I said, I've only used them once or twice.
I've heard that there can be issues with, sun scald in some areas, so some people like to leave them on so that the bark of young trees doesn't get all that hot. summer heat, but I haven't had that experience myself, and I have to confess I'm a little guilty of not researching things I haven't actually come up with, actually, we've, we have, and I'm here to learn. You tell me what you've learned, because you're a fruit tree lady. I'll tell you what I've learned. I'm the fruit tree lady. Yeah, what I've learned is, actually, when we do have the white spiral guards on in the winter, we're good. At that particular orchard, for whatever reason, we didn't have them.
but I have not had too many problems in our orchard, Now, we have another, email from Yola. And Yola's, listening in Long Beach, California. Now, Yola knows a secret I haven't yet announced on the show, and that's This show, actually won a Silver Award of Achievement from the GWA, which is, used to be called the Garden Writers Association, now I think it's called the Garden Writers and Communicators Association.
So we have an award, and obviously Yola somehow knows about that because she writes, Hi Susan, first and foremost, congrats on your award for the radio show. So happy about this award, by the way. That's me talking. She says, I love it. I second that, by the way. Yay, so nice. Very well done. Yay. So she says, Yola says, I love the info today.
Now she says, what about fencing your garden? So I feel like what Yola is trying to say is what about putting a big fence rather than protecting tree by tree, just put a big fence around your garden. Make it nice looking. how would that work? It is such an individual preference. I've seen two things that I feel are fairly indestructible.
One was the fellow that did a fence around each separate bed. And he did that so that the panel, the front panel, it's hard to describe it without a visual I guess, but the front panel was removable so you pull that panel off to your weeding to your trimming or harvesting, put that panel back in place, move to the next bed.
And that worked for him because he didn't have, for whatever reason, he didn't want to put a big fence around his, it was, he was a renter, basically was what it was, and he didn't want to put a big permanent fence around his garden. But what I personally wound up with, is basically deer fort knocks around my garden and my fruit trees, and it's a double fence.
So I highly recommend it for its effectiveness against deer. Anything that walks above ground, and you notice I said walks, because certain things can still fly in at this stage, but I have the first fence that's immediately around the perimeter of the garden. It's about six feet tall. the posts that I used were eight feet tall, and we sunk them in the ground around two to two and a half feet, so it shortens up your, top line.
The second row of fencing is about seven feet away from the first, seven feet out. And it's only about four and a half feet tall. And in between those two fences, you can do several things. You can still put garden crops in those spaces because this is so effective against deer because, I'm talking around in a circle, I apologize, but it's a fence.
It's a defense fence against deer because they do not jump high and wide. And this fence has been in place on this particular garden for eight years. I've never once had a deer, they don't even come close to it anymore. They looked at it first maybe, but never once I did even try to broach it.
And along the inside perimeter. I have roses. Oh yay. So I know it's working. Oh yay. But you can plant anything you want in that middle perimeter because they don't even try to jump it. What I use it for is chickens. My chicken run goes all the way around the garden. They're also on bug patrol, so that actually helps with a little bit of pest control that way.
It prevents small rodents from scurrying above ground into the garden, especially my beloved ground squirrels. my ideal fence is that particular style. It's two rows of fencing, and I use a two by four wire, which is, it's, Big enough to keep out big animals like deer, neighbor dogs, which is another wildlife issue.
moose, never had, I've had a moose near the garden, never had one in it, not this one. But it's a very personal thing because people either like the look of a garden fence, or they don't, or they can't afford to put up a nice fence, or they can't. The, cheap alternative, which is where I actually began with this particular garden, is, They make those, metal posts that you can pound into the ground and they make them quite tall.
I had eight foot tall metal posts and I had wrapped around that the, black kind of invisible, supposed to be invisible deer mesh. And that actually worked pretty well for a while. Had I done a double fence with that, I think it would have worked just as well as my extensive wood post and metal wire fence.
I just like the look of this better. you must, maybe you can get me a picture and I'll put it on our Facebook page and I can add it so people can see it. It sounds amazing. We're going to Oh, I'd love to. Thank you. Yeah, that would be great. So what we're going to do is we're, we're going to chat again after the commercial break, but first I want to raffle off your wonderful book, which I really enjoyed, Deer Proofing Your Yard and Garden.
here's what I'm going to ask the listeners to do. If you would like a copy of this book, for free, sent to you, to your door, write an email to instudio101 at gmail dot com, and put a title, Book Giveaway. And then in the email, tell me why you would like a copy of this book. if you're the third person to send that email, we'll send you the book for free.
how does that sound? That sounds pretty good. I hope. Instudio101 at gmail. com. Let's see who writes. Rhonda, stay on the line. We're going to continue chatting after the, a word from our sponsors. And, yeah, you're, you'll hold on the line for a minute. You're listening to the Urban Forestry Radio Show on Reality Radio 101.
I'm Susan Poizner from the Fruit Tree Care Training website, OrchardPeople. com. And we'll be back in just a minute.
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Welcome back to the Urban Forestry Radio Show with your host, Susan Poizner. Right here on Reality Radio 101. To get on board, send us an email right now. InStudio101 at gmail. com.
And now, right back to your host, Susan Poizner. I'm Susan Poizner, and you're listening to the Urban Forestry Radio Show. A program where we learn about fruit trees, food forests, permaculture, and our bar culture, and lots more. Thanks for tuning in. In today's program, we've been talking about how to protect your fruit trees and garden from all sorts of critters like deer, squirrels, bunnies, and their friends.
And now I've been speaking with Rhonda Massingham Hart, the author of various books, including Deerproofing Your Garden. So Rhonda's on the line, and Rhonda, we have another question from a listener.
[00:57:09] Listener Email: Dealing with Feral Cats
here's the question from Opal in Toronto. Interesting question. Any suggestions for cat proofing? I have three neighbors who feed cats, and now I have a feral colony of two families living in my backyard, and I'm unable to garden this year, as I don't know what diseases these animals carry.
Their presence has increased the presence of squirrels, skunks, and raccoons. Oh boy, wow. what do you think about that, Rhonda? Oh, Opal. Yeah. My heart goes out to you. I, right now I'm dealing with seven feral cats. that just appear. I catch them with live traps when I can. And here, I can take them and have them neutered and then hopefully you know, either farm them out as barn cats or hopefully they can be tamed.
Most of these cats that I'm talking about are so wild you can't get near them and I wholeheartedly agree, you can't really garden with a big colony of cats. Especially if you're looking at a food garden. live trapping It does work, but the bigger problem, honestly, is either your neighbors or whoever it is that drops these cats off way out here in the middle of nowhere.
It's more of a social issue than a gardening issue because people need to be responsible for their pets. having said that, the one upshot of having a few cats around is it has slowed down the rodent population. Maybe one or two is good, but, Again, if you can put up a physical barrier that will keep out rabbits, it'll keep out cats.
But it's a lot of trouble to go to, and really it's a problem that should be addressed from the source. And I'm sorry that's probably not a lot of help, and you already knew that. But it's, Touches me because I'm dealing with that right this minute. Maybe a big dog. I don't have a dog. Maybe that's worth a shot.
Oh, that's an interesting suggestion. Yeah, I just I also feel for opal it's so hard because you want to express your creativity in the garden grow your own food The only thing that I would say as being involved in a community orchard project Don't know, you know where you live But it's a wonderful thing to start a project like a community orchard in a nearby park.
You can meet people, you can develop community, you learn so much. and check out my book called Growing Urban Orchards. You can get that in the library if you're from Toronto and various places where I tell the story of our orchard and how, much it's enriched my life. don't give up on gardening.
That's a wonderful idea. Yeah, don't if you can't make your garden work where you are, go where the garden works. yeah, exactly.
[01:00:00] Deer Proofing Book Giveaway
Okay, so before the show ends, we've got three emails. Now let's do them in order. The first one was from Lori, and Lori says, I would like the deer proofing book because I've recently planted 24 trees and I'm worried about them getting eaten.
Okay, that was our first email. I wish I could send everybody one. Our second email was from Alice. Hi. Now, where's Alice from? I don't know. Hi. Oh, she says, hi, writing in for the prize. Love your show. Thank you for your information. The book that Rhonda wrote sounds like such great free information for folks that have these problems, and I do.
So that's Alice. Now, let's see, and she says she's from Orlando, Florida. yeah, so we've got two emails and I said for the third, what are we going to do? I'm going to ask Gary. Gary, what Let me put both those names in this little cup and then you can pull them out. Okay. Because otherwise, if we had more time, we'd wait and I'm sure more people would write in for the book, but we have two for that.
So why don't we just put the names in a cup and you want to pull it out? Okay. Laurie and Alice, we're going to put your names in a cup. That's what we're going to do. I'll be right in. Hold on. Okay. Gary's coming in. Hold on. I wish, Rhonda, that you were here as the guest, it would be more fun for you to pick the name out of the cup.
But let's see, and it just even I can manage to pull a name out of a hat if there's only a couple of them. It's only a couple. we've got Gary scribbling away there. we'll find out. And this is actually an interesting lesson because I know that there's about 2, 000 listeners out there. And I know sometimes people say, oh, I'm not going to write.
I'll never get it. But we, you've got a good chance because there's a lot of shy people out there who aren't writing in. Oh, I appreciate very much both these people because I understand what they're going through. It gets really frustrating when you're about to plant something, especially 24 fruit trees.
that's. Very ambitious, but I have to admit I think gardening in Orlando would be Full of all different kinds of challenges from the weather to they have different sorts of insects and pests down there I wouldn't want alligators in my garden. ha oh my gosh me either. Okay, you hear the crinkle Here's the crinkle I don't know if you guys can hear crinkling. I am opening up my little white piece of paper and Alice you are the winner You get the free book. Yay! I'm so sorry, Lori. Please try again another in next month. I'll have another book and maybe you'll win then and I so love that both of you guys wrote in.
So amazingly, this is crazy.
[01:02:37] Conclusion and Farewell
Rhonda, I feel like you and I could talk for another hour, but the show is coming for to an end. So if you get ready to talk about chickens or horses or canning or hoarding, is my favorite time. Okay, that sounds great. thank you so much for coming on the show.
Do send us the pictures. I'll put them on my website of your double fence. I will do that. I appreciate your interest. Yeah, thank you so much. So that, we'll talk to you next time. Thank you, Susan, and thank you for inviting me to Canada for the morning. I really enjoyed it. Okay, great. Okay. Take care.
Bye bye. Take care. Bye bye. So that was Rhonda Massingham Hart, the author of Deerproofing Your Yard and Garden. Do check out her book in the library or order it online. Anyways, strangely, she lives somewhere between Deer Park and Elk in Washington. Oh, dear me. Okay, that was a joke, guys. Oh, dear me. Okay.
Anyways At least Gary's laughing. So that's it for the Urban Forestry Radio show today and I really hope you enjoyed the show and we will tune in next month with more great interviews and check out orchardpeople. com if you want to read some blogs and stuff about fruit trees. That's all for now. The Urban Forestry Radio Show on Reality Radio 101.
I'm Susan Poizner.
You've been listening to the Urban Forestry Radio Show on Reality Radio 101. To learn more about the show and to download the podcast where I cover lots more great topics, you can visit orchardpeople. com slash podcast. This show is broadcast live on the last Tuesday of every month, and each time I have great new guests talking to me about fruit trees, food forests, and arboriculture.
If you're interested in learning more about growing your own fruit trees, or just about living a more sustainable life, Go to OrchardPeople. com and sign up for my information packed monthly newsletter. If you like this show, please do like our Orchard People Facebook page. You can also follow me on Twitter at Urban Fruit Trees.
Thank you so much for tuning in. It's been wonderful to have you as a listener, and I hope to see you again next time.
Thank you for listening to the Urban Forestry Radio Show with your host, Susan Poizner, right here on Reality Radio 101.