Orchard People

[00:00:00] Introduction and Susan's Gardening Dreams
Susan Poizner: Hi everyone. Welcome to this show today. I'd love to know, what do you grow in your garden? I love growing fruit trees, of course, but I also grow vegetables and pollinator plants. But so far, I don't really grow that many types of berries.
I do have a dream though. My dream is to grow blueberries in my yard. The problem is that, where I live, blueberries really aren't that easy to grow. They're fussy about the type of soil that they need. But maybe, just maybe, I can grow a berry that's blue without it being a blueberry. Hopefully it'll be sweet and juicy, too.
[00:00:49] Introducing the Special Guest: Don Northcott
Susan Poizner: That's why I've invited a special guest to chat with me on today's program. Don Northcott is the founder of Phytocultures Limited. He propagates and distributes haskaps, a hardy new type of berry.
And guess what? It's juicy, it's sweet, and it's blue.
Then, in the second half of the show, I'm gonna look back in time. More than six years ago, I visited the Sharing Farm Community Orchard in Richmond, British Columbia, and I was really inspired by what they did there.
So much so, that I came back to Toronto, Canada, and founded a community orchard in my local park. So later in the show, I'll chat with Anna Rallings, who was involved in the Sharing Farm Orchard. Since then, things have changed. The orchard has become part of a University farming program. Anna and I will chat about lessons learned and how the orchard has changed over the years.
[00:01:55] Understanding Haskaps: The New Blue Berry
Susan Poizner: But first, let's talk about berries that are blue, but that are not actually blueberries. On the line is Don Northcott of Phytocultures Limited.
Don, are you there?
Don Northcott: Yes, ma'am.
Susan Poizner: How are you today?
Don Northcott: I'm very good.
Susan Poizner: Excellent. Don, can you tell me a little bit about your company and how it is you got involved with haskaps?
Don Northcott: Sure. Phytocultures is a plant propagation company. We propagate, for the most part, new potato varieties. We do blueberries, and we are now working with a brand new crop. It's an edible blue honeysuckle. Some folks call it an edible blue honeysuckle. Some folks call it haskap berry.
[00:02:47] Origins and Cultivation of Haskap, Also Known as Blue Honeysuckle and Honeyberry
Susan Poizner: And where were haskaps originally created or invented? I understand that there's some sort of, that they're a hybrid.
Don Northcott: That's true. A little bit of the background of the biology of this crop. It can be found in the boreal forest in the northern regions of the globe. So if you look in the forests in Canada from, let's say, almost from St. John's, Newfoundland, right /up to the Yukon, you can find it in the boreal forest. You can find it / on the Kamchatka Peninsula in the northern islands of Japan. And then it goes from Siberia right around to Norway.
So it's found in all of these areas. A little bit of specifics with regard to the development of the berries, the Aboriginal cultures of the First Nations peoples, in the northern islands of Japan and on the Kamchatka Peninsula, used to harvest these berries from their stalks during the spring. They have somewhat different species in those areas, and the berries are a little larger. And that went on for hundreds, if not thousands, of years.
Susan Poizner: And did they eat them fresh at that time or dry them?
Don Northcott: Sure, they did. It would've been probably the first berry that they would've come across in the spring.
These plants are extremely tolerant of cold temperatures, and I describe them a little bit as a sprinter. They're one of the first plants to put leaves on, in the early spring. The flowers pop out very quickly after that and they pollinate.
And in Prince Edward Island here, and in other parts of Canada, the berries start to ripen in the latter part of June, and they're fully ripe here in Prince Edward Island during the first week of July.
Susan Poizner: So that's quite early, I suppose then?
Don Northcott: Yes, it would be, and it would be the first berry that you'd be able to pick from the forest at that time.
[00:05:00] Growing Conditions and Adaptability
Susan Poizner: You call it a sprinter. So I understand it would need full sun, but does it only need full sun in the early spring where the trees around it probably don't have leaves anyways?
So is it quite flexible like that?
Don Northcott: Yes. If I can get into the botany side of things a little bit, all of the plants have their own special mechanism for survival. The haskap plant or the blue honeysuckle plant, it's not a very strong competitor. So it has adapted, or it has evolved, to be very tolerant of winter conditions, cold temperatures.
It's early to blossom, early to set berries. And by the time many of the other trees in the forest, like the maple trees, for example. By the time they've got their full leaf canopy out, this plant is pretty well completed its cycle. So it already would have the berries on and just the berries would ripen and the plants would've been, let's say, botanically successful, in producing its next generation of propagules.
Susan Poizner: It sounds interesting. It sounds also a little bit tricky because a lot of people might think, oh good, I can go plant it in the shade then.
Don Northcott: I think they do best in the full sunlight. And the reason I'm saying that is, in the wild, they've adapted to the wild conditions, but when you bring the cultivated varieties out into the open field, and you control the weeds and you control the competitors, like the trees and things like that, they flourish. I wouldn't recommend you plant them in a shady spot, but if they get shade for part of the day, probably that's not gonna be a problem.
But, but by and large, this plant would enjoy the luxury of full sunlight all day long.
Susan Poizner: Now, as I said in my introduction, there's lots of us, especially here in Toronto, who would love to grow blueberries and some people do it successfully, amending the soil, making it more acidic.
Would haskaps give me some more flexibility for people who don't live in places where blueberries naturally thrive?
Don Northcott: Yes. This probably would be the berry crop for people in the cities to grow. It's widely adapted to a varying array of soil types and growing conditions.
So it's a true survivor. It's a true, if you want to call it, a plant for northern environments. We've found that it grows quite well in rocky soils, it grows well in deep loam soils. Of course, the better the soil, the better the plant.
Some of the aspects of the plant that really appeal to me would be, it doesn't appear, as yet, to have many disease organisms or insect predators that would chew the berries or eat the flowers or things like that. So this plant would be an ideal plant, I think, for home gardens or city gardeners.
Susan Poizner: So we were talking about it used to grow in the wild. It probably still grows in the wild. First Nations people used to harvest them. So what happened to turn it into a haskap? It was somehow hybridized. What has it been mixed with, and why even bother?
[00:08:51] Breeding and Selection Process
Don Northcott: This is a brand new crop, and what the several researchers have done, one of them being Dr. Bob Bors with the University of Saskatchewan. Rather innovative guy. He's worked with some of the people that have collected wild genetics. They've gone up to the woods and picked plants that they've got nice tall stems and they've got nice bushy plants and they've produced big berries.
And what he has done is, he's taking these plants back to the University of Saskatchewan. He's crossed them, taking the pollen from one plant, put them on the flowers of another, and made berries. And then he selected those berries, taking the seeds out and growing those little plants out.
And he goes through a process of selecting the better plants from the general population. So he would create maybe 4 or 5,000 or 10,000 seeds. He would grow 10,000 plants out in the field. And then from that 10,000 plants, he would go through and over the process of positive and negative selection, where he would pick some of the good ones and throw away some of the bad ones, over, let's say the course of 10 years, he would reduce that population of say, 10,000 plants down to six or seven plants. And each of these plants would be an individual. They'd be like brothers and sisters, but they wouldn't be identical twins.
Susan Poizner: I gotcha.
Don Northcott: Okay? So what Dr. Bors has done, he has selected some of these new varieties , and he's made them available to plant propagators such as Phytocultures. We would turn, let's say one or two plants and we would turn them into 50 or 60, or 500 or 600, or 6,000 or 7,000 plants just through our propagation techniques.
And then we make them available to home gardeners and we make them available to companies that are looking at producing the berries for wine production or jam production or fresh.
Susan Poizner: Interesting. So it's not really like they've been crossed with anything else.
They're just the best of the bunch. They were the best of these wild plants. I would assume they have the best tasting berries?
Don Northcott: Yes.
Susan Poizner: Is there a wide variety in the way that the haskap berries taste, depending on which cultivar?
Don Northcott: Yes, we're still working on that with Dr. Bors. We're doing selection for Dr. Bors in Prince Edward Island. We're working more or less in a marine climate. Dr. Bors being in Saskatchewan, he's in a continental climate. And the difference would be the humidity.
Dr. Bor in Saskatchewan would be selecting plants under a more or less, a dry land climate. Whereas, in Prince Edward Island, we're near the sea. We're in the sea, for example. We have rather high humidity environment. So we're selecting for the tolerance to this kind of climate. We're also selecting for plants that mature at different times of the season. We're selecting for plants that have different berry shapes.
We're looking specifically for berries that could be mechanically harvested. And, we also have some interesting plants identified for home gardeners. They have large, fat juicy berries that they're a little different in terms of taste. They look a little bit like a blueberry, but when you actually look at them, you say, gee, that doesn't really look like a blueberry.
And then you taste them and you say, gee, that tastes a little bit like a plum and a raspberry mixed together and maybe a little bit of blueberry on the side. The texture, when you consume it or have it in your mouth, it's very soft. It's full of seeds, but the seeds don't have a mouth feel, so it's a very palatable berry. And the flavor, you get 'em ripe, they're very tasty.
Susan Poizner: Oh, sounds delicious. My mouth is watering right now as we speak.
So let's get a bigger picture. Climate zone. What would you say the climate zone for a haskap is? We've got listeners that are listening from around North America, so people in California, all over the place.
What would you say the climate zone is, in general?
Don Northcott: You might be a bit surprised at what I'm gonna tell you, but we have been working with this crop and it grows quite well in Prince Edward Island. So we're at 46 degrees north latitude.
Probably they would grow in any of the northern climates where we get a bit of cold temperatures. I've got a small trial in the San Luis Valley in Colorado, up in the mountains at probably 8,500 feet above sea level. And the plants are growing quite well there.
We're lacking bumblebees there. That's the missing component there. But, we have them growing, let's say from 46 degrees north latitude right up to Moose Factory on the shores of James Bay in Ontario. And that would be, in terms of a Frost Zone Area, 1a.
Susan Poizner: Wow, that's cold.
So that's Canadian zones. I know it's a little different, ma'am. In the state. Yes, ma'am. Yeah. Wow. Hardly anything grows in 1a, but haskaps grow there?
Don Northcott: Haskap will grow there no problem.
Susan Poizner: That's incredible, if they have bees to pollinate it. Otherwise, I guess you'd have to hand pollinate.
Don Northcott: That's right, or buy little hives of bumblebees and put them up.
Susan Poizner: Wow. Okay. So that's the cold end. And what about the warm end?
Don Northcott: That's a good question. Because we're only four or five or six years into the development of this crop, we haven't found the lower limit of production yet.
But I'm assuming any place with probably 1,400 to 1,600 cold chill hours, these things would really do quite well.
Susan Poizner: So let's see, the furthest south that you've grown them that you know of, where we can grow them? Can you give me an example of a place?
Don Northcott: That would be in the mountains in Colorado. That's at elevation.
Susan Poizner: So if, maybe, we have listeners that are in other places further south that wanna try them?
Don Northcott: It wouldn't be a crop that I would recommend for somebody, say in Virginia, unless they're in the mountains in some of the colder areas of North America.
That's where this crop would be best suited. It would be like trying to grow oranges in Prince Edward Island. They might grow quite well during the summer, but their lifespan would be quite restricted. So there are some limits. We're trying to profile this crop.
This is a new crop.
It's not like a different variety of apple like Mcintosh, Cortland, or Idared, or Honey Crisp. This is a brand new crop. So you would have apples, oranges, pears, grapes, blue honeysuckle berries. Okay?
Susan Poizner: Yes.
Don Northcott: And because it's such a new crop, we have to learn how to plant these things, what kind of fertilizers they like, if there are any disease issues that are going to happen in the future. We have to understand the the harvesting side of the berry. We have to look at how to handle the berries after we harvest them.
And then, some of the other aspects would be, where are the best production areas, say in North America?
How far north can we go and have berries that can make a commercial harvest, or be useful for home gardeners? Or how far south in Canada or the United States, we can grow them. I know we can grow them all through Canada, in all parts of Canada. Probably most of the northern states and the United States, I think, they would do quite well.
[00:17:19] Pests and Protection Strategies
Susan Poizner: So we were talking about pest and disease problems, and I know that I've heard quite a few reports, that these wonderful haskaps get harvested very quickly by birds before humans ever get a chance to eat them. Is that the case?
Don Northcott: I can, yes, affirm that. I can give a little bit of a story about what happened. One of the first crops that we had coming along, we had lots of nice little berries on the plants, and we said, okay, now we'll have a field day. We'll show all the local folks what the berries look like, how they grow, how they're growing.
The berries started to turn blue, and so we had an open house. We invited folks to come in on a Saturday morning and taste the berries and pick them. And on Friday, I went out, looked, everything was fine, and the berries were starting to get ripe and we said, okay, this is great. We're gonna have a great day tomorrow.
Saturday morning arrives at 11 o'clock. Folks show up. We go out to the field. I give a little presentation and I say, okay folks, here's your baskets. Go and pick some, and tell me what you think. People started going down the rows and they say, Don, where's the berries?
To my shock, I go and look and there isn't a berry left on the plants. We were visited, that day, by a flock of cedar waxwings, and those little birds ate every berry we had. I can say that, from then on, we've installed bird nets over these plants to prevent the bird damage.
Susan Poizner: That's what I was gonna ask you because, I have also, like I said, I've heard online that people are saying, darn, we missed it somehow. They got it first. And I don't know if it's all birds that like haskaps, or if it's just some certain types of birds? But that's the question.
People will want to experiment with this new wonderful plant, but do you suggest that they plant them in some sort of structure where it's gonna be easy to drape them with a netting? And how fine does the netting have to be?
Don Northcott: First I could say, grow the plants. The birds will love you.
If you're a bird watcher, any bird that is a berry consumer will flock to these plants, literally. If you're after the berries, we're recommending folks install some kind of netting system over the plants when the first berries start to turn blue.
And that will happen probably the first week of June, in our location. We're finding that most birds, robins, blue jays, black birds, grackles, starlings, crows, ravens, oh, there are some other small birds, they're testing the berries to see when they're ripe. And as soon as they're ripe they consume them.
So you need a net that's small enough to exclude a cedar waxwing, which is probably the most voracious bird, and that would be maybe an inch and a half on a net.
Susan Poizner: So I guess you have to build, I don't know, a teepee kind of structure and then peg the fabric into the ground?
Don Northcott: We bought net, and then made almost like a pop up tent type of arrangement. We just put almost like a clothes line over the top of the plants and then drap the net over the top.
And what's very important, you have to put the nets to the ground and then peg the nets to the ground 'cause these little birds, somehow, they will find a way to get inside the net and get your berries.
[00:21:35] Future of Haskaps in the Market
Susan Poizner: So right now, I don't think you can find these in supermarkets. Am I correct?
Don Northcott: That's correct.
Susan Poizner: Do you think that's gonna happen in the future?
Don Northcott: Oh, yes. We're actively trying to turn this into a brand new blueberry industry.
We have a number of commercial people interested in this berry because of the high antioxidant content of the berries. So if you're comparing these to highbush blueberries, they would have four times the antioxidant levels of, let's say, an equivalent amount of highbush blueberry berries.
They have a unique flavor. The juice is very dark. It's an intense juice. A lot of folks come and tell us they use them in smoothies. They are used in jams and jellies and things like that. One of the treats that we give our visitors, when they come to visit our facility here in Prince Edward Island, is we have vanilla ice cream and we put the berries over the top of the ice cream. First we freeze the berries, and then basically, a lot of juice comes out and they make a really stunning presentation.
Susan Poizner: Sounds yummy. So if we're ready to go out and order some plants, can we get away with one, or does it have specific pollination requirements?
Don Northcott: They're like blueberries and apples. They need to be cross pollinated, so you need at least two varieties. And some of the varieties we're working with, are Indigo Treat, Indigo Gem, Tundra, and then there are some other varieties that we use as, we call them pollinators.
Susan Poizner: Oh, so do the pollinator varieties actually produce fruit or not?
Don Northcott: Oh, yes, they do.
Susan Poizner: Oh, they do?
Don Northcott: Yep. And they're quite vigorous. They flower over a longer period of time, and so they catch some of the early pollinating varieties and then they catch some of the late pollinating ones.
And I can say that the varieties that came from the University of Saskatchewan probably have a better flavor and better size profile than some of the pollinating types, but the pollinating types are very good as well.
Susan Poizner: Fantastic. And one last question for you. There are some people, like myself, I sometimes like combining plants with edible berries and edible plants with ornamental plants in a bed. Is that something that you could do? Or would the competition of being planted beside a bunch of echinacea or something, would that be just too much, for the haskap?
Don Northcott: These are woody perennials. They're like a bush. So what you would do is if you were gonna put them in your garden, put them on the back. Let's say the back part of your garden, a place that would be easy to manage in terms of pruning and netting and probably full sunlight.
What we're doing, as a nonchemical way, we're putting a heavy bark mulch underneath the plants to prevent weeds and grasses.
Susan Poizner: Okay. And the pruning? Pruning would be basic shrub pruning, just cutting out dead wood?
Don Northcott: Just shape management. That's all.
Susan Poizner: Really? Okay. Wonderful. Don, thank you so much for coming on the show and for this chat, I feel like we could chat on, there's a lot of other interesting things that you're doing as well. Hopefully you'll get to come back again on the show one day. Is there any last words you would like to say to our listeners about haskaps?
Don Northcott: Stay tuned to the channel because, there are some exciting developments coming from our breeding efforts.
Susan Poizner: Oh, wonderful. thank you so much, to you Don and goodbye for now. Have a great day.
Don Northcott: Thank you, Susan. Bye.
[00:25:32] Susan's Journey to Starting a Community Orchard
Susan Poizner: Way back in 2007, I dreamed of planting a community orchard in my local park, and that's here in Toronto, Canada.
I had learned about community orchards in different parts of North America, and it seemed to me like a great idea. So during a trip to British Columbia, I did a little research and I visited a number of community orchards around that province. I wanted to learn from them how they did it. I wanted to learn from their successes and from their mistakes.
One of the first orchards that I visited was the Sharing Farm Orchard in Richmond, BC. It was beautiful. It was huge, and their goal was to grow lots of fresh fruit that could be donated to the local food bank. I was so impressed at how professionally they trained their volunteers. I wanted to create an orchard like that on a smaller scale, but every orchard transforms and changes over time.
[00:26:33] Interview with Anna Rallings: The Sharing Farm Orchard
Susan Poizner: So on the phone today, I have Anna Rallings, Research and Education Farm Coordinator in the Sustainable Agriculture and Food Systems Department of Kwantlen Polytechnic University.
Hi Anna. Thanks for coming on the show today.
Anna Rallings: Hi. Hello from the West Coast.
Susan Poizner: Hello. How's everything over there? What's the weather like?
Anna Rallings: Fantastic. pretty normal weather for us in the fall. Some nice days of sunshine like today, but of course, the rain train is coming.
Susan Poizner: Dear. The rain train. Oh my goodness. You're used to that.
Anna Rallings: Yeah. Yeah. And we're preparing for some colder nighttime temperatures. But yeah, we are used to the rain coming around this time of year, so it's no different than any other year.
Susan Poizner: Anna, way back when I visited what was then called the Sharing Farm Orchard, you hadn't yet quite become involved, but can you tell me a little bit about how that community Orchard began?
Anna Rallings: Yeah, absolutely. The Sharing Farm Society, which used to be the Richmond Fruit Tree Sharing Project, they had the site down in South Richmond and they had been growing vegetables on it.
And Dr. Kent Mullinix, who is A researcher here at Kwantlen Polytechnic University, he approached the board and suggested that, during this period of transition where they were moving the vegetables to another site, that perhaps they wanted to plant an apple orchard. So Dr. Mullinix and the Sharing Farm, they planted an acre of a whole bunch of different varieties of apples, Liberty, Jonafree, Spartans, all sorts. And so it initially started as this one acre of trees, and there was actually a research element to it. So they had different types of mulch and they had planted up the drive rows with a number of different mixes of plants to establish in the drive row there.
Essentially, it started with just that acre, and then, over time, we added to it. So in 2010, Kwantlen Polytechnic University started the Richmond Farm School. So this is a 10 month practical training program for people who want to get into agriculture, not just field crops, but also fruit trees.
So with the Richmond Farm School in 2010, we planted another half acre of pears and started adding to the apples as well. So over time it's expanded.
Susan Poizner: That sounds like a lot of trees. Like how many trees would that be for those of us who need to picture?
Anna Rallings: So it started with 140 apples, and then we added 50 pears.
And actually at the peak of the tree count, we had 242 apples, 130 pears, 40 cherries, and a few one-offs of, some different varieties that we were trying out. So quite a lot of trees.
Susan Poizner: That's a lot of trees. So, at this point, the farm school is involved. Was there enough people to care for and prune all of those trees?
I know when I was there, I attended a workshop that Kent taught, which was wonderful.
Anna Rallings: Yeah. Kent has been a great orchard mentor. He worked with the Sharing Farm and the orchard coordinator at that time, Kenny Hendez, and they created some plans around big work parties. Of course, that's the big thing around these community orchards, is you need coordination to figure out what time of the year you need to have a lot of people come in and then you need just bodies. You need people to come out.
And with the Richmond Farm School, we would organize big work parties integrated into the program there. And then of course with Sharing Farm volunteers, they would be integrated into big work parties.
So especially mulching and pruning, these were big jobs where we just needed a lot of folks. With some good coordination, we were able to put that together. And yeah.
Susan Poizner: That's a lot.
Anna Rallings: It's worked over time, but of course, you just need someone to keep at it as well week to week.
Susan Poizner: So the Farm School, is that still what's happening on the site, or is it a different program now?
The Sustainable Agriculture Program. Where's the connection between the two?
Anna Rallings: Kwantlen Polytechnic University and the Sharing Farm worked together for quite a few years, primarily through the Farm School at the orchard site and at their other vegetable site.
[00:31:20] Challenges and Adaptations in Orchard Management
Anna Rallings: So essentially a couple years ago, in about 2013, the Sharing Farm realized that the orchard was a big investment. It was a lot of pressure on them. They were going through some changes so we essentially have been going through a transition where, along with the city of Richmond, we've been moving towards taking over the management.
So KPU has now been managing the orchard since last year. And so essentially, the transition has gone from just a pure community orchard to a mix of a research orchard, a teaching orchard, a community orchard, and ultimately an orchard that's been managed by the University, primarily for the Richmond Farm School. So the Richmond Farm School is one of the groups that interacts with the orchard and provides some help.
And then, of course, our four year degree program in Sustainable Agriculture. So our students from that program are also being integrated into the orchard where they can do practical work and learn about fruit trees, and then of course, continuing that legacy of having it as a space that's open to the public that provides education for the public as well.
So it has been going through a bit of a transition, but it really means a lot more teaching, a lot more students, a lot more experimenting. And so we've been really excited to continue our work with the orchard since we've been involved in it since 2008, and really gotten to see how it changed over time.
Susan Poizner: I love fruit trees. I think fruit trees change the world. You put in a few fruit trees, it changes everything, right? They have their needs.
Anna Rallings: Yeah, absolutely.
Susan Poizner: I always say this. It's like having children. These are beings. They're not gonna be dug up and thrown out at the end of the season. They have their needs, and we need to work with them and they tell us what they need.
Anna Rallings: Absolutely, and we've had a pretty complicated site. I think the aspect of where you plant them, it's gonna reveal so much over time, as you see the fruit trees mature in this place that you've put them. You can't just pull them out and put them somewhere else. It becomes a commitment.
A lot of people don't think you can grow fruit in Richmond, but we definitely have, although we've had to adapt to it. So these trees have told us a lot about the site. We started with a site that was very acidic and so we've been trying to support the trees by adding a little bit of lime and helping to regulate that part of it.
But of course, there's other things we can't change. There's lots of wind on the site. It's a very wet site, so our water table gets quite high in the winter, and with that, comes all sorts of different diseases and issues that we just need to help the trees with.
And it changes over different stages of their life, so a young sapling needs different types of support than a more mature tree. And some of our trees are now entering their sixth year. And so it's definitely been interesting watching them develop over time.
Susan Poizner: In our community orchard, in Toronto, I remember one of my first mentors came to the park and he saw where we had planted the trees and what we were doing.
And he said, Susan, this is the perfect learning orchard, because everything was wrong. I'm not saying everything was wrong, but basically it wasn't a beautiful big farmland with perfect soil and perfect everything. We were using city soil to try and grow our trees, and so, a perfect learning orchard is one where you will encounter challenges so that when your students go off into the world, they'll know what to expect.
And every site has its challenges, even the perfect farmland sites do as well, but quite interesting. Okay, so things have changed and your site has taught you what it wants. Are you planting different types of trees now? Or in a different way? Yeah.
Anna Rallings: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, we've had some, one of the goals of the orchard, at its inception, was to essentially test out varieties.
So we planted many varieties of apples, many varieties of pears, and we also have a whole bunch of different cherries. We have some plums now. So one of the big things that has been really clear to us and that our orchard has told us pretty clearly is that the disease pressure is just much too high on the apples in that site.
They have a very hard time at multiple stages of their life. So we've actually found that pears and plums and cherries do amazing. And More of a good thing. So we've been planting more of those particular types of things. Pears. We're planning on expanding our plums. We've had a couple plum trees that have just had great yields, and so, I think a really positive aspect of the orchard over time has been because we've planted lots of different varieties and lots of different types of fruit trees.
Even though we may not have gotten the results that we wanted with one particular variety or one particular type of tree, we found that there are lots of other great results that have come from unexpected fruit trees, essentially.
There's a certain point where you say, okay, I can't put a square peg in a round hole and this site is telling me, maybe it's not ideal for apples. Maybe that's too much of an investment and time and energy, and maybe in the end, the apples won't be able to establish very well.
So why try and go against nature and what the site is saying? Why don't we try to plant more of what's working and work with the site to produce as much amazing, delicious fruit as we possibly can? So it's definitely been interesting and yeah, planting lots of varieties has really helped us identify what works, what doesn't. What's the issue? It's been great.
Susan Poizner: The same thing is happening with us, but in the sense that we find that disease resistant apple trees are doing very well on our site. Apricots are doing amazing. Pears, forget it. Plums struggle. So even if there was another site right next door, they could have totally different challenges and different requirements and different needs, so it's all a big learning journey.
Anna Rallings: Yeah. And I think it's important not to see it as a failure. You plant a couple apple trees and maybe you can't get a handle on the anthracnose that's getting to them. So that's a disease that we've had issues with, and it's just because of moisture and you don't have to see it as a failure.
Sometimes it is just a little too difficult to push against that pressure. I think it's a victory to find what works and to really capitalize on what you get out of the site, and adapt to it as well. The trees, you can help them adapt, but you also have to adapt a little bit too and have some flexibility there.
Susan Poizner: It's a two-way conversation, two-way.
Anna Rallings: Absolutely.
[00:38:42] Educational Programs and Practical Training
Susan Poizner: Tell me a little bit about the farm school. How many hours will the students spend in the orchard? How many hours will the students learn about all the theory of what they're going to be doing with the trees?
Anna Rallings: Yeah, absolutely. With the farm school program, we combine in-classroom learning with in-the-field practical training. So Kent Mullinix actually runs a 40 hour fruit tree production class with the students. So they have classroom time, outdoor instruction time with Kent, where they talk about canopy management, how trees develop, what the trees need.
And then, they actually spend upwards of 50 hours at the orchard, depending on the year, pruning and seeing the trees through the year, 'cause the program starts in February and ends in November. So they really get to see a whole cycle of the orchard. So we involve them in all the stages. Everything from early spring pruning, grafting, fertilization, summer management, irrigation systems, all of that type of work, and then going into harvest and assessment of the trees going into the winter time and winter prep.
So it's nice for them because they do get that formal instruction where they get some time to wrap their head around the theory. But then we also do take them outside. And it's very similar with our undergraduate students. So they have a springtime fruit crop production class that many take.
But then during that same year, they have three courses in a row. A spring, a summer and a fall semester where they have an agroecosystems management class in that, literally, we just mean farming. So they come out with us as well, and they have that theory coming into it, but then they spend the summer and also the spring and fall, actually getting their hands dirty and seeing what happens. They pruned in the spring and then they get to see what happens with that by the time the fall comes.
Susan Poizner: Love that. And all the growth that comes off of. That's so rewarding when you actually see the relationship with the tree unfold.
You make some pruning cuts and then you see how the tree responds. It's, I don't know, a chess game or a conversation where I do something. I do X and Y, and the tree does P and Q, and then we just work together. And I love it. And I'm quite excited about espalier pruning as well, which is something that I'm quite passionate about.
But again, it's this conversation and you're sculpting the tree, but it's teaching you at the same time.
Anna Rallings: Absolutely. Yeah. And every year is unique. This year we had quite a bit of drought actually on the west coast. We had a very dry summer and we usually get a lot of rain into the late spring, but it's been dry since late March, which is very strange for us. And so, it's been interesting watching the trees as they deal with the stress of drought. We do have an irrigation system, but it doesn't prevent some of the other issues from coming up and just how dry it was.
So yeah, it's definitely been interesting for me as somebody who's been at that orchard first as through the Richmond Farm School starting in 2010 till now, where I'm managing this orchard. It's been interesting seeing how it's all developed, 'cause in 2010 I helped plant those pears, and now they're finally coming into fruit. And so, watching how it's developed, and every year we've done different prunings and all sorts of helpful actions for the pear trees.
And it's been really rewarding seeing the how that turns into fruit and how that turns into healthy trees, 'cause it really is a long game. Some years you have to cut your losses and see what happens, and do something that may not result in something positive and obvious in the first year.
But really over those few years, you're gonna get a lot of reward. Apples come into fruit a lot earlier than pears, but for pears, you're waiting 5, 7, 10 years for these trees to start producing fruit. And sometimes, you're making a lot of long game decisions.
Susan Poizner: Somebody once told me, you plant pears for your heirs.
[00:43:12] Reflections on Fruit Tree Cultivation
Anna Rallings: Absolutely.
Susan Poizner: I guess so. Yeah, so it's in most conversations about fruit trees, the first thing people will say, oh, how's the fruit? How's the fruit tasting? And the more you're involved with fruit trees, you realize the first two, three years we remove all the fruit, anyways, to benefit the tree.
But how is the fruit? It's been long enough that you've had a little harvest, right?
Anna Rallings: Yeah, definitely. We've had quite a few apples coming off of the system. Several thousand pounds over the past few years, and they've been pretty beautiful. Lots of different varieties. it's unfortunate because the apples haven't been doing well, as far as the actual tree, but the actual fruit yield has been fantastic.
And the pears are just starting to come into fruit and they are so juicy and so wonderful.
And so it's just been so rewarding going from a little whip planted several years ago, to now, large 15 foot trees with really beautiful D'Anjou fruit and Kalle pears as well. And so, it's amazing watching them.
It's like you said, right? You have children first, you watch them grow and then suddenly they start going to school and coming home with all these amazing things. And so, I feel like it's the same way. You end up with these trees and you think, wow, you made that! That's fantastic.
Susan Poizner: Good for You!
Anna Rallings: Sometimes when I look at the trees, I think, I can't really take credit for it. These trees have been working so hard and they produce all this amazing fruit. Yeah, you help along the way, but man, you end up in awe of these amazing beings that can produce such amazing, delicious fruit.
Susan Poizner: And yet, they couldn't do it without us.
Anna Rallings: Yeah, absolutely.
Susan Poizner: They couldn't do without us. And I think that's the misconception that so many people have out there, is just pop 'em in the ground. They'll take care of themselves. They could do it, but there would be a lot of pest and disease problems. The fruit wouldn't be tasty.
And can you imagine like 250 trees, 400 trees that were left neglected? It would just be a horrible thing.
Anna Rallings: Absolutely. We've put, every year, hundreds of hours of management into these trees. At this point we're probably around two acres of fruit trees.
So we have a tractor and a mower and a sprayer for the tractor so we can apply our organic products. And we've had to scale up 'cause, at some point, you need to decide. Okay, I have seven trees, that's really great. But what if I have 200 trees? Will I still be able to do all of this work, every week, or every other week or every month?
And so, being able to choose your tools correctly can help. And, yeah, you have to stay involved. A lot of people see, oh okay, there's a lot of work in the spring and there's all this work in the fall, but there's so much maintenance that happens in the summer. And having some time where you can talk to other community orchards or other small orchards and find out, okay, when's your busy time?
How much time should I put in? How does this scale up when I have 10 times more trees than I have now? And so I think these are all really important questions. 'cause yeah, if you're not involved, there are things that will just get outta control and they do need our support. They are domesticated species in most cases.
Susan Poizner: Exactly.
Anna Rallings: They've been bred to need our support.
Susan Poizner: Exactly.
I am so grateful to you, Anna. I'm so glad that we managed to connect and chat, and I hope we'll have you or Kent back in the future on the show. There's so many different things we can talk about. Pest and disease and specific diseases and how you guys deal with them, so hopefully you'll come back again someday.
Anna Rallings: Absolutely. And I hope everybody has a wonderful winter and has a nice fall with nice harvests and easy winter prep and we'll see everybody in the spring.
Susan Poizner: Oh, thank you so much, Anna. Okay. You take care and we'll talk soon.
Anna Rallings: Have a wonderful day. Thank you.
Susan Poizner: Okay, goodbye.
Anna Rallings: Bye.
[00:47:23] Conclusion and Thank You
Susan Poizner: That's all for the show today. I can't believe how quickly it's gone by. Before we wrap up, just a big thank you to our two guests, to Anna Rallings and to Don Northcott. We really appreciate them coming on the show today, so thank you also to the members of the Community Orchard Network who've helped make this happen.