Orchard People

#002 AUDIO Haskaps with Don Northcott
[00:00:00] Introduction to the Urban Forestry Radio Show
Welcome to the Urban Forestry Radio Show brought to you by the Community Orchard Network. In this monthly radio show and podcast, I'm going to take you on a journey. We'll learn about fruit trees, permaculture, food forests, and so much more. So if you're a gardener and enjoy growing your own food, If you love trees and especially fruit trees, or if you're just interested in living a more sustainable life, you've come to the right place.
I'm Susan Poizner, your host for today. So get ready, roll up your sleeves and let's dig in to today's episode.
Welcome to the Urban Forestry Radio Show with your host, Susan Poizner. Right here on Reality Radio 101. To contact Susan live, email her, realityradio101@yahoo. com.
And now, your host of the Urban Forestry Radio Show, Susan Poizner.
[00:01:34] Susan's Gardening Dreams and Challenges
Hi everyone, welcome to the show today. I'd love to know, what do you grow in your garden? Myself, I love growing fruit trees, of course, but I also grow vegetables and pollinator plants. But so far, I don't really grow that many types of berries.
I do have a dream though. My dream is to grow blueberries in my yard. The problem is that where I live, blueberries really aren't that easy to grow. They're fussy about the type of soil that they need. But maybe, just maybe, I can grow a berry that's blue without it being a blueberry. Hopefully it'll be sweet and juicy too.
[00:02:24] Introducing Don Northcott and Haskaps
That's why I've invited a special guest to chat with me on today's program. Don Northcott is the founder of Phytocultures Ltd. He propagates and distributes haskaps, a hearty new type of berry. And guess what? It's juicy, it's sweet, and it's blue. Then in the second half of the show, I'm going to look back in time.
More than six years ago, I visited the Sharing Farm Community Orchard in Richmond, British Columbia, and I was really inspired by what they did there. So much so that I came back to Toronto, Canada, and founded a community orchard in my local park. So later in the show, I'll chat with Anna Rawlings, who was involved in the Sharing Farm Orchard.
Since then, things have changed. The orchard has become part of a university farming program. Anna and I will chat about lessons learned and how the orchard has changed over the years. But first, let's talk about berries that are blue, but that are not actually blueberries. On the line is Don Northcott of Phytocultures Limited.
Don, are you there? Yes, ma'am. How are you today? I'm very good. Excellent. Don, can you tell me a little bit about your company and how it is you got involved with haskaps? Sure. PhytoCultures is a plant propagation company. We propagate for the most part new potato varieties. We do blueberries and we are now working with a brand new crop, an edible blue honeysuckle.
Some folks call it an edible blue honeysuckle. Some folks call it a haskap berry.
[00:04:24] The Origins and Biology of Haskaps
And where, where were haskaps originally sort of created or invented? I understand that there are some sort of, that they're a hybrid. Well, that's, that's true. a little bit of the background or the biology of this crop.
It can be found in the boreal forest in the northern regions of the globe. So. If you look in the forests in, Canada from, let's say, from, almost from St. John's, Newfoundland, right up to, up to the Yukon, you can find it, in, in the boreal, boreal forest. you can find it in, on the Kamchatka Peninsula in the northern islands of Japan.
And then it goes from Siberia right around to Norway. So it's found in all of these areas. A little bit of, specifics with regard to the, development of the, of the berries. the, aboriginal cultures of the First Nations peoples in, the northern islands of Japan and on the Kamchatka Peninsula, used to harvest these berries from their stalks during the spring.
They have different, somewhat different species. In those areas, and the berries are a little larger, and, that, you know, went on for, you know, hundreds, if not thousands of years. And did they, did they eat them fresh at that time, or dry them? Sure, they, they did. It would, it would have been, probably the first berry that they would have, come across in the, in the spring.
These, these plants are extremely tolerant of cold temperatures, and they, they are, I described them a little bit as a sprinter. They're one of the first leaves, first plants to put leaves on in the early spring. The flowers pop out very quickly after that. And they pollinate. And in Prince Edward Island here, and in other parts of Canada, the berries start to ripen in the latter part of June, and they're fully ripe here in Prince Edward Island.
during the first week of, July. So that's quite early, I suppose, then. Yes, it would be, and it, you know, it would be the first berry that you'd be able to pick, you know, from the forest at that time.
[00:06:44] Cultivation and Adaptation of Haskaps
Well, you call it a sprinter, and, so I understand, like, obviously it would need full sun, but does it only need full sun in the early spring, where the trees around it are, probably don't have leaves anyways?
So is it quite flexible like that? Yeah, so, every If I can get into the botany side of things a little bit, all of the plants, have, have their own special mechanism for survival. the Haskap plant or the Blue Honeysuckle plant, is a, it's not a very strong competitor. So what it does, it has adapted its, or it has evolved to, be a very, tolerant of winter conditions, cold temperatures.
It, Early to blossom early to set berries and by the time many of the other other trees in the forest like the maple trees, for example, by the time they've got the fully leaf canopy out this planet pretty well completed its cycle, so it already would have the berries on and it would just the berries would ripen and the plants would have been, you know, let's say, botanically successful in producing its next generation of propagules.
It sounds interesting. It sounds also a little bit tricky because a lot of people might think, oh, good, I can go plant it in the shade then. it, I, I think they do best, in the full sunlight. And the reason I'm saying that is, in the, in the wild, they've, they've adapted to the wild conditions. But when you bring the cultivated varieties out into the open field, And you control the weeds and you control, you know, the competitors, like the trees and things like that.
They flourish, with abandon. So they, they're very, like I say, I wouldn't recommend, you know, you plant them in a shady spot. But, you know, if they get shade for part of the day, probably that's not going to be a problem. But, but by and large, this, this would, this plant enjoys, would enjoy the, Luxury of full sunlight, all day long.
Now, as I said in my introduction, I mean, there's lots of us, especially here in Toronto, who would love to grow blueberries, and some people do it successfully, amending the soil, making it more acidic. Would haskaps give me some more flexibility if I, you know, for people who don't live in places where blueberries naturally thrive?
Yes, this probably would be the berry crop for people in the cities to grow. It's widely adapted to a varying array of soil types and growing conditions. So, it's a true survivor. It's a true, if you want to call it, plant for northern environments. We found that it grows quite well in rocky soils, it grows well in, you know, deep loam soils.
Of course you're going to get better plants. The better the soil, the better the plant. But some of the aspects of the plant that really appeal to me would be, it's, it's doesn't appear as yet. You have many, disease organisms, or insect, predators that would, chew the berries or eat the flowers or things like that.
So this plant would be an ideal plant for home gardens or city gardeners.
[00:10:40] Challenges and Opportunities in Growing Haskaps
So we were talking about that, so it used to grow in the wild. It probably still grows in the wild. First Nations people used to harvest them. And so, what happened to turn it into a Haskap?
It was somehow hybridized. What has it been mixed with, and how? Why even bother? Well, this is a brand new crop. And what several researchers have done, one of them being Dr. Bob Boers with the University of Saskatchewan, rather innovative guy. He's worked with, with some of the people that have collected wild genetics.
They've gone out to the woods and picked plants that look, they've got nice tall stems and they've got nice bushy plants and, and they've produced big berries. And what he has done, he's, he's taking these plants back to the University of Saskatchewan. He's, crossed them, you know, taking the pollen from one plant, put them on the flowers of another, and, made berries, and then he selected those berries, taking the seeds out, and growing those little plants out.
And he goes through a process of, selecting the better plants from the general population. So he would create maybe 4, 000 or 5, 000 or 10, 000 seeds. He would grow 10, 000 plants out in the field. And then from that 10, 000 plants, he would go through, and over the period, process of positive and negative selection where we would pick some of the good ones and, and, and throw away some of the bad ones over, let's say, the course of, say, 10 years, he would, he would reduce that population of, say, 10, 000 plants down to six or seven plants.
and each of these plants would be, an individual or, or, you know, they'd be, they'd be like brothers and sisters, but they wouldn't be identical twins. I gotcha. Okay. So what, what Dr. Bors has done, he has selected some, some of these new, varieties, if you call them varieties. and he's made them available to, plant propagators such as phytocultures.
We, would take them, we would turn, let's say one or two plants and we would turn them into, you know, 50 or 60 or, 500 or 600 or six or 7000 plants just through our propagation techniques. And then we make them available to home gardeners and we make them available to, you know, companies that are looking at producing the berries for wine production or jam production or fresh.
Interesting.
[00:13:27] Commercial Potential and Future of Haskaps
So, so that's not, it's not really like they've been crossed with anything else. They're just the best of the bunch. They were the best of these wild, plants. I would assume. They have the best tasting berries. Is there a wide variety in the way that the Haskat berries taste, depending on which cultivar?
we're, we're still, we're still working on that with Dr. Boers. we're doing selection, for Dr. Boers in Prince Edward Island. And, we're working more or less in a marine climate. Dr. Boers being in Saskatchewan, he's in a continental climate. And the difference being Would be the humidity. Dr. Bors in Saskatchewan would be selecting plants under a dry, more or less a dry land climate.
Whereas in Prince Edward Island, we're, we're near the sea. We're in the sea, for example. we, we have, rather high humidity, environment. So we're, we're selecting for, you know, the tolerance to this kind of climate. we're also selecting for, plants that mature. At different times of the season, we're selecting for plants that have different berry shapes.
we're looking specifically for berries that, could be mechanically harvested. And, we also have some interesting, plants identified for home gardeners. Large, fat, fat, juicy berries that, you know, they're a little different in terms of taste. yeah. They look a little bit like a blueberry, but when you actually look at them, you say, well, gee, that doesn't really look like a blueberry.
And then you taste them and you say, well, gee, that tastes a little bit like a plum and a raspberry mixed together and maybe a little bit of blueberry on the side. The texture of the, when you consume it or have it in your mouth, it's very soft. it's full of seeds, but the seeds are, they don't have a, there's no mouth feel.
So they're, they're very, it's a very palatable, berry. And the flavor. You get them ripe, they're very tasty. Oh, sounds delicious. My mouth is watering right now as we speak. so, so just let's get a bigger picture. Climate zone. What would you say the climate zone for a house gap is? We've got listeners that are listening from around North America, so people in California, all over the place.
So, what would you say the climate zone is in general? Well, you might, you might be a bit surprised at what I'm going to tell you. But, we have, been working with this, this crop, and have, you know, it'll, it'll work in, in, it grows quite well in Prince Edward Island. So we're at, 46 degrees north latitude.
probably they would grow, you know, in, in any of the northern climates where we get a bit of cold, cold temperatures. I've got a small trial in, in the San Luis Valley in Colorado. Up in the mountains at, at, probably 8, 500 feet above sea level. And, the plants are growing quite well there.
we're lacking bumblebees there. That's the, missing, missing component there. But, we have them growing, let's say from 46 degrees north latitude right up to, Moose Factory on the, on the shores of James Bay in, in Ontario. And that would be in terms of a frost zone area. 1A. Wow, that's cold.
So that's, I guess, Canadian zones. I know it's a little different in the state. Wow, hardly anything grows in 1A. But haskaps grow there. Well, a haskap will grow there, no problem. That's incredible, if they have bees to pollinate it. Otherwise, I guess you'd have to hand pollinate. That's right, or, or buy, buy little hives of bumblebees and put them up.
Wow, okay, so that's the cold end. And what about the warm end? that's, that's a good question. I don't know. We haven't yet found the lower limit of the crop yet. And because we're only four or five or six years into this, the development of this crop, we haven't, haven't found the lower limit of production yet.
But I, I'm, I'm assuming any place with, you know, with probably, Fourteen to sixteen hundred cold chill hours, these things would really, would really do, do quite well. So, let's see, the furthest south that you've grown them that you know of, that where we can grow them, like, can you give me an example of, of a place?
Well, would be, Colorado in the north, in the mountains in Colorado. Colorado. That's at elevation. So, if maybe we have listeners in other places further south that want to try them, so, Well, it wouldn't be a crop that I would recommend for somebody, say, in Virginia, unless they're in the mountains.
You know, in some of the colder areas of North America, that's where this crop would be best suited. It would be like trying to grow grow oranges in Prince Edward Island. Mm hmm. They might grow quite well during the summer, but, their lifespan would be quite restricted. So, there are, there are some limits.
we're trying to profile this crop. This is a new crop. it's not like a different variety of apple, like Macintosh, Cortland, or Ida Red, or, or, Honeycrisp. This is, this is a brand new crop, so you would have apples, oranges, pears, grapes, Blue honeysuckle berries. Okay. Yes. So, and, and because it's such a new crop, we have to learn how to, how to, how to plant these things, what kind of fertilizers they like, if there are, you know, any disease issues that are going to happen in the future, we have to, understand, you know, the harvesting side of the berry, we have to look at, how to handle the berries after we harvest them.
and then some of the other aspects would be where are the, where are the best production areas, say in North America, how far north can we go and have, berries that are, you know, that can make a commercial harvest or, or be useful for home gardeners or how far south in Canada or the United States we can grow them.
I know we can grow them all through the Canada. You know, in all parts of Canada, probably most of the northern states in the United States, I think they would do quite well. Alright, well, Don, we're going to be able to continue this conversation. We need to have a little break and a few words from our sponsors.
But after the break, we're going to explore more about Haskapp Varieties, protecting them from pests, which we'll talk about. So hold on the line. you're listening to the Urban Forestry Radio Show on Reality Radio 101. I'm Susan Poizner, and we'll be back soon.
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growing fruit trees or perhaps a seasoned expert? Either way, come and join the Community Orchard Network. We are a group of community and home orchardists. From across North America who gather through monthly webinars, radio broadcasts like this one and podcasts, we want to share our experience, deepen our knowledge, and widen the movement.
Join the conversation. Visit www.orchardpeople.com/network to find out more. This message was brought to you by the Baltimore Orchard Project.
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Welcome back to the Urban Forestry Radio Show, with your host Susan Poizner, right here on Reality Radio 101. To contact Susan live right now, email her, realityradio101 at yahoo. com.
And now, right back to your host, Susan Poizner. This is the Urban Forestry Radio Show brought to you by the Community Orchard Network. I'm Susan Poizner. And today I'm chatting with Don Northcott of Phytocultures Limited. And we're talking about a berry that is blue, but that is definitely not a blueberry.
We're talking about HASKAPs. And also, please do email us now if you have a question at realityradio101 at yahoo. com. We'll read your message and we can ask Don any questions that you may have. So Don, you're still on the line with us, right? Yes. Yes, we are. Wonderful. So.
[00:24:37] Protecting Haskaps from Birds
We were talking about pest and disease problems and I want to know, I know that I've heard quite a few reports that these wonderful haskeps get harvested very, very quickly by birds before humans ever get a chance to eat them.
Is that the case? I can, I can, affirm that. we, I can give a little bit of a story about what happened. we One of the first crops that, we had coming along, we had lots of nice little berries on the plants and we said, okay, now we'll have a field day, we'll show, all the local folks, what the berries look like, how they grow, how they're growing, the berries started to turn blue and, so we, opened, had an open house, we invited folks to come in, come in on a Saturday morning and, taste the berries.
and pick them. And, we were on Friday when I looked, everything was fine and the berries were starting to get right. And, we said, Okay, this is great. So we're gonna have a great day tomorrow. So, Saturday morning arrives about 11 o'clock. Folks show up. Well, we go to the field. I give a little presentation and I say, Okay, folks, here's your baskets.
go out and pick some and, Tell me what you think. And, people started going down the roads and they said, Don, where's the berries? And, to my shock, I go and look and there isn't a berry left on the plant. we were visited that day by a flock of cedar waxwings. And, those little little, birds, ate every berry we had.
Like, I can say that, from then on, we, we've installed, we've had to put a bird net over these plants to, prevent, to prevent, That's what I was going to ask you because I have also, like I said, I've heard online that people are saying, darn, they, we missed it. Somehow they got it first. And I don't know if it's all birds that like, that like haskaps, or if it's just some certain types of birds.
but that's the question, you know, people will want to experiment, with this new wonderful plant, but do you suggest that they Plant them in some sort of structure where it's going to be easy to drape them with, a netting or, and how fine does the netting have to be? Well, first I could say, grow the plants.
the birds will love you. They're, if you, if you're a bird watcher, any, any bird that is a berry consumer will, will flock to these, to these, plants, literally. if you're after the berries, we're recommending folks, install some kind of netting system over the plants when the first berries start to turn, blue.
And that will happen probably the first, first week of June in our location. we're finding that, most birds, we're finding, robins, blue jays, blackbirds, grackles. Starlings, crows, ravens. Oh, there are some other small birds. they're in testing the berries to see when they're ripe, and as soon as they're ripe, they, they consume them.
So, you need a net that's small enough to exclude a cedar waxwing, which is probably, the most voracious, bird. and that would be maybe an inch and a half, on a net, on the net. Hmm. So I guess you have to sort of, build, I don't know, a teepee kind of structure and then peg the, the fabric into the ground.
We, we bought net and then, made, made like a, almost like a pop tent type of, arrangement. We just put a, almost like a clothesline over the top of the plants and then draped the net over the top. And what's very important You have to put the nets to the ground and then peg the nets to the ground because these little birds do somehow they will find a way to get inside the net and Get your berries So do you think in the long term?
[00:29:18] Haskaps in the Market and Home Gardens
I mean right now, I don't think you can find these in supermarkets. Am I correct? That's correct. Do you think that's gonna happen in the future? Oh, yes We're we're we're actively trying to turn this into a brand new blueberry industry we have We have, a number of commercial people interested in this berry because of the, the high antioxidant content of the berries.
So if you're comparing these to high bush blueberries, they would have four times the antioxidant levels of, let's say an equivalent amount of, high bush blueberry berries. They have a unique flavor. the juice is very dark. It's an intense juice. so it, it, it, we've used them in, a lot of folks come and tell us they use them in smoothies.
they are used on, you know, in jams and jellies and things like that. One of the treats that we give our, our visitors when they come to visit our facility here in Prince Edward Island is, We have, vanilla ice cream and we put the, berries over the top of the ice cream. First we freeze the berries, and then they, they basically, the juice, a lot of juice comes out and they are Make a, make a really, stunning presentation.
Mm, sounds yummy. So, so, if I'm, or one of the listeners are, are, if we're ready to go out and, and, and, order some plants, can we get away with one, or does it have specific requirements? Well, they're like blueberries and apples. They, they need to be cross pollinated. So you need, you need, you need at least two, varieties.
And, Variety pairings would be, you know, some of the varieties we're working with are, indigo treat, indigo gem, tundra, and then there are, there are some, other varieties that, we use as, we call them pollinators. Oh, so do they, the pollinator varieties actually produce fruit or not?
Oh, yes, they do. Oh, they do. Yep. And, they, they're quite, they're quite vigorous. They, they flower over a longer period of time. And, so they, they catch some of the early pollinating varieties and then they catch some of the late pollinating ones. So, and, and they're, they're quite, I can say that the, the varieties that came from the, University of Saskatchewan probably have a, have a better flavor and better size profile.
And some of the pollinating pollinating types are very good as well. Fantastic. Well, so, and one last question for you. I think there are some people, like myself, I sometimes like combining plants with edible berries and food, you know, edible plants with ornamental plants in a bed. Is that something that you could do, or with the competition of being planted beside a, you know, a bunch of echinacea or something, would that be just too much for the house cat?
These are woody perennials.
[00:32:35] Planting and Caring for Haskaps
They're like a, they're like a bush. What you would do is, if you were going to put them in your garden, put them on the back, let's say the back part of your garden. a place that would be easy, easy to, manage in terms of pruning and, and netting. And, probably full sunlight.
Mm hmm. And, and they, they, you would need, what we're doing, as a, as a As a non chemical way, we're putting, a heavy bark mulch underneath the plants to, to prevent, you know, weeds and, and, grasses. Okay, and the pruning, pruning would be basic, shrub pruning, just cutting out dead wood.
Yeah, just, just, just shape management, that's all. Really? Okay. Wonderful.
[00:33:22] Thank You and Final Words from Don
Well, Don, thank you so much for coming on the show and for this chat. I feel like we could chat on. There's a lot of other interesting things that you're doing as well. Hopefully you'll get to come back again on the show one day. So, is there any last words you would like to say to our listeners about, about haskaps?
stay tuned to the channel because, there are some exciting developments coming down, coming from our breeding, breeding efforts. Oh, wonderful. Well, thank you so much, to you, Don, and, and goodbye for now. Have a great day. Thank you, Susan. Bye.
[00:33:56] Sponsor Messages and Announcements
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[00:36:19] Introduction to Community Orchards
Welcome back to the Urban Forestry Radio Show. With your host, Susan Poizner, right here on Reality Radio 101. To contact Susan live, email her, realityradio101. com.
And now right back to your host, Susan Poizner. I'm Susan Poizner and you're listening to the Urban Forestry Radio Show. Brought to you by the Community Orchard Network. A program where we learn about fruit trees, food forests, permaculture, and lots more. So thanks for tuning in.
[00:37:09] Susan's Journey to Community Orchards
Now, way back in 2007, I dreamed of planting a community orchard in my local park.
And that's here in Toronto, Canada. I had learned about community orchards in different parts of North America and it seemed to me like a great idea. So during a trip to British Columbia I did a little research and I visited a number of community orchards around that province. I wanted to learn from them how they did it.
I wanted to learn from their successes and from their mistakes. One of the first orchards that I visited was the Sharing Farm Orchard in Richmond, BC. It was beautiful, it was huge, and their goal was to grow lots of fresh fruit that could be donated to the local food bank. I was so impressed at how professionally they trained their volunteers.
I wanted to create an orchard like that on a smaller scale, but every orchard transforms and changes over time.
[00:38:11] Interview with Anna Rawlings
So on the phone today, I have Anna Rawlings, Research and Education Farm Coordinator in the Sustainable Agriculture and Food Systems Department of Kwantlen Polytechnic University. Hi, Anna.
Thanks for coming on the show today. Hi. Hello, Coast. Hello. How's everything over there? What's the weather like? Fantastic. pretty normal weather for us in the fall. some nice days of sunshine like today, but of course, the rain train is coming. Oh, dear. The rain train. Oh, my goodness. Well, you're used to that.
Yeah, yeah, and we're preparing for some colder nighttime temperatures, but yeah, we are used to the rain coming around this time of year, so it's no different than any other year. So Anna, way back when I visited what was then called the Sharing Farm Orchard, you hadn't yet quite become involved, but can you tell me a little bit about how that, that community orchard began?
Yeah, absolutely. So, the Sharing Farm Society, which, It used to be, the Richmond fruit tree sharing, project, they had the site down in South Richmond and they had been growing vegetables on it. And Dr. Kent Molnix, who is, Researcher here at Kwantlen Polytechnic University, he approached the board and suggested that perhaps during this period of transition where they were moving to the vegetables to another site, that perhaps they wanted to plant an apple orchard.
So Dr. Molnick and the sharing farm, they planted an acre of A whole bunch of different varieties of apples, Liberties, Jonafri, Spartans, all sorts. And so it initially started as this one acre of trees and, there was actually a research element to it. So they had different types of mulch and they had planted up the drive rows with a number of different.
Mixes of, of plants to establish in the drive road there. So, essentially it started with just that acre. And then, over time, we added to it. So in 2010, Kwantlen Polytechnic University started the Richmond Farm School. So this is a 10 month practical training program for people who want to get into agriculture, not just field crops, but also fruit trees.
So with. the Richmond Farm School in 2010. We planted another half acre of pears and started, adding to the apples as well. So over time, it's expanded. that sounds like a lot of trees. Like how many trees would that be for those of us who need to kind of picture? So 140 apples. then we added 50 pears and actually at the peak of, the tree count, we had 242 apples, 130 pears, 40 cherries, and a few one offs of some different varieties that we were trying out, so.
Quite a lot of trees. That's a lot of trees. So, so at this point, the farm school is involved. I mean, was there enough people to care for and prune all of those trees? I know when I was there, I attended a workshop that Kent taught, which was wonderful. Yeah. So, Kent has been a great orchard mentor. He worked with the sharing farm and, the orchard coordinator at that time, Kimi Hendis, and they created some plans around big work parties.
Of course, that's, that's the big thing around these community orchards is you need coordination to figure out what time of the year you need to have a lot of people come in and then you need just. bodies. You need people to come out. And so, with the Richmond Farm School, we would organize big work parties integrated into the program there.
And then, of course, with sharing farm volunteers, they would be integrated into big work parties. So especially mulching and pruning. These were big jobs where we just needed a lot of folks. So with some good coordination, we were able to put that together. And so, yeah, it works over time. But of course, you know, you just need someone to kind of keep at it as well.
Week to week.
[00:42:34] Challenges and Adaptations in Orchard Management
So the farm school, is that still what's happening on the site? Or is it a different program now? The sustainability, sustainable agriculture program? How? Where's the connection? between the two. So, Kwantlen Polytechnic University and the sharing farm, worked together for quite a few years, primarily through the farm school at the orchard site and at their other, vegetable site.
so essentially a couple of years ago in about 2013, The sharing farm realized that the orchard was a big investment. It was a lot of pressure on them. They, they were going through some changes. And so, we essentially have been going through a transition where, along with the city of Richmond, we've been moving towards taking over the management.
So KPU has now been managing the orchard since last year. And so essentially the transition has gone from, just. Kind of a pure community orchard to a mix of a research orchard, a teaching orchard, a community orchard, and ultimately an orchard garden. that's been managed by the university, primarily for, the Richmond Farm School.
So the Richmond Farm School is one of the groups that interacts with the orchard and provides some help. And then, of course, our four year degree program in sustainable agriculture. So our students from that program are also being integrated into the orchard where they can do practical work and learn about fruit trees.
And then of course, continuing that legacy of having it as a space that's open to the public that provides education for the public as well. So it's, it has been going through a bit of a transition, but it really means. A lot more teaching, a lot more students, a lot more experimenting, and so we've been, we've been really excited to, to continue our work with the orchard since we've been involved in it since 2008 and really gotten to see how it changed over time.
I love fruit trees. I think fruit trees change the world. You know, you put in a few fruit trees, it changes everything, right? They have their needs. Yeah. And it's like, I always say this, it's like having children, like. There, there's no, these are beings. They're not going to be dug up and thrown out at the end of the season.
And they have their needs and, and we need to work with them and they tell us what they need. So, absolutely. And I mean, we've had a pretty complicated site. I think that. Aspect of where you plant them, you know, it's going to reveal so much over time as you see the fruit trees mature in this place that you put them, you know, you can't just pull them out and, and, and put them somewhere else.
It becomes a commitment. So, you know, a lot of people don't think you can grow fruit in Richmond, but we definitely have. although we've had to, we've had to adapt to it. So they've, these trees have told us a lot about the site. We started with a site that was very acidic. And so we've been kind of.
Trying to support the trees by adding a little bit of lime and helping to to regulate that that part of it But of course, there's other things we can't change like there's lots of wind on the site. It's a very wet site so our water table gets quite high in the winter and With that comes all sorts of different diseases and issues that we just need to help the trees within and it changes over different stages of their life.
So a young sapling needs different types of support than a more mature tree. And some of our trees are now, you know, entering their, their sixth year. And so it's, it's definitely been interesting watching them develop over time. In our community orchard in Toronto, I remember one of my first mentors came to the park and he saw where we had planted the trees and what we were doing and he said, you know, Susan, this is the perfect learning orchard, because everything was wrong.
I mean, I'm not saying everything was wrong, but basically, it wasn't a beautiful big farmland with perfect soil and perfect everything. We were using city soil to try and grow our trees. And so a perfect learning orchard is one where you will encounter challenges so that when your students go off into the world, they'll know what to expect.
and every site has its challenges. Even the perfect farmland sites do as well, but, quite interesting. So, okay. So things have changed and your site has taught you what it wants. Are you planting different types of trees now? or in a different way. Yeah. Yeah, we've had some. I mean, one of the goals of the orchard at its inception was to essentially test out varieties.
So we planted many, many varieties of apples, many varieties of, pears. and we also have a whole bunch of different cherries. We have some plums now. So one of the big things that has been really Clear to us and that our orchard has told us pretty clearly is that, that the disease pressure is just much too high on the apples in that site.
They have a very hard time at multiple stages of their life. So we've actually found that Pears and plums and cherries do amazing. And so, you know, more of a good thing. So we've been planting, more of those particular types of things. Pears, we're planning on expanding our plums. We've had a couple of plum trees that have just had great yields.
And, and so I think a really. Positive aspect of the orchard over time has been because we planted lots of different varieties and lots of different types of fruit trees, even though we may not have gotten the results that we wanted with one particular variety or one particular type of tree, we found that there are lots of other great results that have come from Unexpected fruit trees, essentially.
So, you can't, there's a certain point where you say, okay, you know, I can't put a square peg in a round hole. And, and this site is telling me, you know, maybe it's not ideal for apples. Maybe that's too much of an investment in time and energy. And maybe in the end, you know, the apples won't be able to establish very well.
So why? Why try and go against nature and what the site is saying, you know, why don't we try to plant more of what's working and work with the site to produce as much amazing, delicious fruit as we possibly can. So it's definitely been interesting and yeah, planting lots of varieties has really helped us identify what works, what doesn't, what's the issue.
It's been great. The same thing is happening with us, but in the sense that We find that disease resistant apple trees are doing very well on our site. Apricots are doing amazing, pears, forget it, plums struggle, you know? So it's like, even if there was another site right next door, they could have totally different challenges and different requirements and different needs.
So, it's all a big learning journey. Yeah. And I think it's important not to see it as a failure, right? So, you know, you plant a couple apple trees. And maybe you can't get a handle on, the anthracnose that's, that's getting to them. So that's, that's a disease that we've had issues with and it's just because of moisture.
And, you know, you don't have to see it as a failure. Sometimes it's just, you know, It's just a little too difficult to push against that pressure. So, you know, I think it's a victory to find what works and to really capitalize on what you get out of the site and adapt to it as well. I mean, the trees, you can help them adapt, but you also have to adapt a little bit too and have some flexibility there.
It's a two way conversation.
[00:50:39] Farm School and Practical Training
Tell me a little bit about the farm school. How many hours will the students spend in the orchard? How many hours will the students learn about, you know, all, all the, the, the theory of what they're going to be doing with the trees? Yeah, absolutely. So, with the farm school program, we, Combine in classroom learning with in the field practical training.
So Kent Molnix actually runs a 40 hour fruit tree production class with the students. So they have classroom time, outdoor instruction time with Kent, where they talk about canopy management, how trees Develop what the trees need. And then, they actually spend, you know, upwards of 50 hours at the orchard, depending on the year pruning and kind of seeing the trees through the year, because the program starts in February and ends in November.
So they really get to see a whole cycle of the orchard. So we involve them in all the stages, everything from, you know, early spring, pruning, grafting, fertilization. Summer management, irrigation systems, all of that type of working and then going into harvest and assessment of the trees going into the wintertime and winter prep.
So it's, it's nice for them because they do get that. formal instruction where they get some time to wrap their head around the theory, but then we also do take them outside and it's very similar with our undergraduate students. So they have a summer, sorry, a springtime, fruit crop production class that many take, but then During that same year, they have three courses in a row.
So, a spring, a summer and a fall semester where they have an agroecosystems management class. And that literally, you know, we just mean farming. So they come out with us as well. And they They have that theory coming into it, but then they spend the summer and, also the spring and fall actually getting their hands dirty and seeing what happens, you know, they pruned in the spring, and then they get to see what happens with that by the time the fall comes.
I love that. comes off of that. That's so rewarding. When you actually see the, the relationship with the tree unfold, you know, you make some pruning cuts and then you see how the tree responds. It's like, I don't know, a chess game or a conversation where I do something, I do X and Y and the tree does, you know, P and Q.
And then we just work together and I love it. And I'm quite excited about espalier pruning as well, which is something that I'm quite passionate about. But again, it's this conversation and you're sculpting the tree, but it's teaching you at the same time. Absolutely. And every year is unique. I mean, this year we had quite a bit of drought actually on the West coast.
We had a very, very dry summer and we usually it's a lot of rain into the late spring, but it's been. It was dry since late March, which is very strange for us. And so it's been interesting watching the trees as they deal with, you know, the stress of drought. We do have an irrigation system, but it doesn't prevent, you know, some of the other issues from coming up and then just how dry it was.
so yeah, it's definitely been interesting for me as somebody who's been at that orchard. first as through the Through the Richmond Farm School starting in 2010 till now where I'm managing this orchard. it's been interesting seeing how it's all developed because in 2010 I helped plant those pears and, and now they're finally, coming into.
Coming into fruit. And so watching how it's developed. And every year we've done different prunings and all sorts of, kind of helpful actions for the, for the pear trees. And it's been really, really rewarding seeing the, how that Turns into fruit and how that turns into healthy trees because it really is a long game Some years you kind of have to cut your losses and see what happens and do something that may not result in something Positive and obvious in the first year, but really over those few years.
You're going to get a lot of reward I mean apples come into fruit a lot earlier than pears, but for pears, you know, you're waiting 5, 7, 10 years for these trees to start producing fruit. And so, you know, sometimes you're, you're making a lot of long game decisions. As somebody once told me, you plant pears for your heirs.
[00:55:14] Fruit Harvest and Reflections
So, you know, I guess so, so it's in most conversations about fruit trees, the first thing people will say, Oh, how's the fruit? How's the fruit tasting? And the more you're involved with fruit trees, you realize, well, the first two, three years we remove all the fruit anyways, so, you know, to benefit the tree, but how is the fruit?
It's been long enough that you've had a little harvest, right? Yeah, definitely. We've had, We've had quite a few apples, coming off of the system. I mean, several thousand pounds over the past few years and they've been pretty beautiful. lots of different varieties. it's unfortunate because the apples, haven't been doing well as far as, as the actual tree, but the, the actual fruit yield has been fantastic and the pears are just starting to come into fruit and they are so juicy and so wonderful.
And so it's just been so rewarding seeing, you know, going from a little whip planted a few, you know, several years ago to now large 15 foot trees with really beautiful D'angelo fruit and, and Calais pears as well. And so it's, it's amazing watching them. I mean, it's, it's like you said, right? You have children first you kind of watch them grow and then suddenly they start going to school and Coming home with all these amazing things.
And so I feel like it's the same way you end up with these trees and you think wow You made that. That's fantastic. Good for you. You know, you kind of, I, I, I sometimes when I look at the trees I think, well, I can't really take credit for it. These trees have been working so hard and they produce all this amazing fruit.
Yeah, you help along the way, but man, you kind of end up in awe of these amazing beings that can produce such amazing, delicious fruit. And yet they couldn't do it without us. Yeah, they couldn't do it without us. And that's it. I think that's the misconception that so many people have out there is just pop them in the ground.
They'll take care of themselves. I mean, they could do it, but there would be a lot of pest and disease problems. The fruit wouldn't be tasty. And can you imagine like 250 trees, 400 trees that were left neglected? It would just be a horrible mess. horrible thing. Absolutely. Well, I mean, we've put every year, it's hundreds of hours of management into these trees.
at this point, we're probably around two acres of fruit trees. So we have a tractor and a mower. Sprayer for the tractor so we can apply our organic products. And, and so, you know, we've had to scale up because at some point you need to decide, okay, well, I have seven trees. That's really great. But what if I have 200 trees?
Will I still be able to, to do all of this work, you know, every week or every other week or every month? And so being able to choose your tools correctly can help and, and yeah, you have to stay involved. I mean, a lot of people see, oh, okay, there's a lot of work in the spring and there's all this work in the fall, but there's so much maintenance that happens in the summer.
And so, you know, having some time where you can. Talk to other community orchards or other small orchards and find out. Okay. Well, you know, when's your busy time? How much time should I put in? How does this scale up when I have ten times more trees than I have now? And so I think these are all really important questions because yeah, it's it's if you're not involved There are things that will just get out of control and they do need our support.
They are, domesticated species in most cases. Exactly. They've been bred to need our support. Exactly. Well, I am so grateful to you, Anne. I'm so glad that we managed to connect and, and chat. And I hope we'll have you or Kent back in the future on the show. There's so many different things we can talk about past.
and disease and specific diseases and how you guys deal with them. So hopefully you'll come back again someday. Absolutely. And I hope everybody has a wonderful winter and has a nice fall with nice harvests and an easy winter prep and we'll see everybody in the spring. Oh, thank you so much, Anna. Okay, you take care and we'll talk soon.
Have a wonderful day. Thank you. Okay, goodbye. Bye.
[00:59:32] Conclusion and Farewell
Well, that's all for the show today. I can't believe how quickly it's, it's gone by. Before we wrap up, just a big thank you to our two guests, to Anna Rawlings and to Don Northcott. We really appreciate them coming on the show today. So thank you also to the members of the Community Orchard Network who've helped make this happen.
I'm Susan Poizner. Thanks for listening, and this is the Urban Forestry Radio Show.
If you want to learn more about the Community Orchard Network, I've created a page on my website where you can find out lots more information on how to sign up for our newsletter. Just visit www. orchardpeople. com slash work. And you can read our frequently asked questions and check out the free webinars and podcasts that we've recorded.
Tune in next month and you'll meet some more great guests and you'll learn more about fruit trees, permaculture, and forest gardens. Our show goes out on the last Tuesday of every month at 1 PM. Eastern time. I'm Susan Poizner. Thanks for tuning in and I'll see you next time.
You've been listening to the Urban Forestry Radio Show with your host, Susan Poizner, right here on Reality Radio 101.