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[00:00:00] Introduction and Welcome
The following program does not necessarily represent the views and opinions of Reality Radio 101, its advertisers and sponsors, or its listening audience. Listener discretion is advised.
Welcome to the Urban Forestry Radio Show here on Reality Radio 101. In this radio show and podcast, we learn about fruit trees, permaculture, aboriculture, and so much more. So if you love trees, and especially fruit trees, or if you're interested in living a more sustainable life, then this is the place for you.
I'm your host, Susan Poizner of the Fruit Tree Care Training website, OrchardPeople. com. Thanks for tuning in! Welcome
to the Urban Forestry Radio Show with your host, Susan Poizner. To contact Susan live right now, send her an email instudio101@gmail.com.
And now right to your host, Susan Poizner. Hi everyone.
[00:01:39] The Pawpaw Tree: An Overview
If you live in certain parts of North America and you're interested in growing fruiting trees, Then, for sure, you've heard about the native pawpaw tree that grows in much of North America. It's a beautiful, tropical looking tree with big leaves. And the pawpaw tree produces an amazing fruit that has the texture of custard and tastes a bit like banana, a bit like mango, maybe with a little touch of vanilla.
It's really a unique fruit that is perishable, so you'll probably never see pawpaws for sale in your local grocery store. And some of us have rushed out to buy pawpaw trees to plant in our yards, in our orchards, or in our community gardens. here's my question. Has anybody listening to the show today done just that?
[00:02:33] Challenges in Growing Pawpaw Trees
And then found yourself with a dead pawpaw tree in a few years. that's what happened to me, and I happen to know that I am not alone. I was super keen to plant pawpaws in my community orchard in Toronto, Canada, and so I ordered my first two pawpaw trees from a local nursery. Now this nursery, which shall remain nameless, sent me trees that were little tiny sticks, about eight inches tall and pretty delicate.
Those little babies didn't last very long in our park. They were probably mowed down by the park gardeners who didn't even know they were there. So then I tried again and got really nice little potted pawpaws from another local nursery. And those pretty little trees looked pretty tough. They lasted a bit longer.
Within three years, both trees were dead. what did I do wrong? If pawpaws are native trees here in North America, then you'd think they'd grow like gangbusters in our climate. There are so many mysteries around the native pawpaw tree, so I've decided the time has come to do a special program that will explore everything you've always wanted to know about pawpaw trees and were afraid to ask.
[00:03:53] Interview with Dan Bissonnette
So standing by on the line is a pawpaw expert who is willing to roll up his sleeves and tell us what to do. He is horticulturalist Dan Bissonnette. Author of the Pawpaw Growers Manual for Ontario. And he's got lots of experience with these trees and understands all their quirky qualities. Now, during the show, you too will for sure have questions to ask and stories to tell and I'd like to hear them.
So during the live show, please do email us at instudio101@gmail.com and remember to tell me your first name. And the city where you're writing from. That's instudio101@gmail.com. on the line is Dan Bissonnette. Dan, how are you today? I'm great. Good to be here, Susan. it's really great to have you unravel the mystery of Pawpaws.
And I'll tell you something. The first mystery is What is a pawpaw? I already got an email from John in Toronto. Now John, he wants to know what's the difference between American pawpaws and Australian pawpaws. And I think that the whole papaya pawpaw confusion is in there, too. So can you tell me a little bit about pawpaws?
That is a kind of a thorny question. because of course there's also references to a pawpaw in the Caribbean. And as far as I know, Susan, these are pawpaws in name only. They're, the pawpaw we'll find out in Australia or the Caribbean are entirely different species with entirely different fruit and entirely different growing habits.
the name, and this is why, I focus on our local, our, the pawpaw that's indigenous to North America, which the Latin name is Asimina triloba. Okay. Asimina triloba. So it's going to look different, taste different, totally different tree than the Australian pawpaw and the papaya that we get in the supermarket.
Am I right? That's correct. Yes. Yes. I, And pawpaw is, as I understand in the Caribbean, is a slang for papaya. Aha. Okay, that helps a lot. So can you just tell me really briefly, how did you get involved with growing pawpaw trees? I'd always been interested in native trees as a horticulturist and as somebody who studied nature.
where I delved into it more actively was I spent, 15 years working for an educational charity called the Naturalized Habitat Network. And when I was giving seminars on native trees and native plants. I couldn't help but notice if I mentioned or discussed pawpaw, the amount of blank stares and the amount of curiosity I would receive from the audience.
And I realized that it was really an unknown tree and that here in Ontario, people did have some sense of our natural heritage in terms of oaks and hickories and maples, but the pawpaw was an unknown quantity that I felt had a lot of merit to explore. Why? Why do you feel it's worth exploring? back in the, around 2009 2010, I was looking for a new project for the Naturalized Habitat Network, and at that point, our, our local economy Here in Windsor and Essex County, where I live, was really, down.
We were part of the automotive industry, we were part of Canada's Rust Belt. And we had reclaimed the title of Unemployment Capital of Canada. And when I was getting feedback from people on new projects, a lot of people said, Dan, you promote native plants to support wildlife. What can you do to promote food that I can feed my family with?
Or something that can help the economy? So I realized that, although it would be a challenge of a juggling act, that somehow we could promote the pawpaw as an indigenous species, but use it in a sustainable way to help community supported agriculture and organic farming and provide a little bit of a economic boost to our region.
So at that time, Dan, did, had you actually tasted pawpaw fruit before? Because I'm, as I mentioned in my introduction, you, just can't pick it up in the supermarket, can you I really can't remember when I first ate pawpaw fruit. I believe I had and, Of course, but by 2010, when I was actively involved, I, that's when I really started, making notes and documenting how the fruit tasted.
and what, its proper ripening time was. tell us about how it tastes. Just give us I think your description was really good. it's almost a complex, it's a complex flavor. To quickly chew it and swallow it is to shortchange the experience. You, I, when I taste it, I get flavors of custard, mango.
And a little bit of an aftertaste of pear. and of course, the pawpaw is being widespread. You may have subtle flavour variations from one region to another as well. and that's another question, because when it comes to our more conventional fruits, like our Ontario Macintosh apple, By the way, everybody came from Ontario.
where these trees are absolute clones, they are absolute copies of each other. So every Macintosh apple will pretty much taste exactly the same. But that's not always the case with pawpaws, is it? So does every pawpaw taste different? yeah, there are there It's debatable because that taste to people varies, but there are changes in the flavor from it when you go, when you consider the species goes as far down south as Tennessee and Arkansas and as far north as southern Ontario and New York State, and west into Nebraska.
You are going to have subtle flavors and to me, it's not something that we should try and breed out of the species by creating cultivar clones. It's something that each region should be celebrating and adopting into its own with its own, traditions and, culinary treats. now with apples, however, you plant an apple tree from a seed from an apple and you don't even know if that apple is going to taste okay.
It might be horrible. It might be hard. do you have a little bit more room to play with the pawpaw? No matter what pawpaw seed you, you sprout and you plant, it'll have a yummy fruit. I guess I know that bananas, I think, have less, genetic diversity than apples. So maybe this is one of those fruits that will taste good no matter what.
Yeah, I know. We're growing up on the farm when we used to see an apple that seeded out, my parents would say, that's a wild tree. The apple in its natural state is a very small fruit. The pawpaw in its natural state is, a completely competent goat sized fruit. you, you do, I, I'm not sure if I fully understand your question though.
I guess what I'm saying is You know, if you're planting a seedling tree from a seed, so this is not a clone, this is not a grafted tree, do you know for sure, that the fruit will be tasty and yummy? Or is there a chance it'll be yucky? Yes, I can personally guarantee that. Oh, there you go.
I have this on the radio. I have this on the radio now. so I have already a couple of questions coming in, actually. The questions are flying in. But before we start digging into those questions, I said in the beginning that there are many challenges, or I've had challenges in growing pawpaw trees. Now, is this, is it just me, or are there some problems?
What are the main problems people, encounter when growing these amazing native trees? let, me start off by saying that you're in good company, because in the past, I have killed my share of pawpaw seedlings. I appreciate you sharing that with me today, thank you. Yeah, I'm fallible.
Anyways, there's a few things that come to mind. I certainly sympathize when you bought those bare root pawpaws. I do not recommend that, it's very risky. And the other issues with potted pawpaws is if people are selling them at only one or two years old, they're very susceptible to winds and they're completely susceptible to direct sunlight.
Ultraviolet light can kill them. At the same time, there's another issue that I have with certain growers, and that is undersized pots. Young pawpaw seedlings produce a very large root in the first year or two of their life. When you have a tree that has leaves as big as that, you need to drink. And when I see people selling pawpaws in one gallon pots or half gallon pots, that Root gets so constricted that it can't develop normally and unlike maple trees and oak trees that can bounce back if their roots have been restricted.
pawpaw's seldom bounce back and they'll usually die if their roots have been too confined. for too long. So interesting. I have a question here from Patty. I've got a bunch of linked questions actually to what we're talking about. So you're talking about pawpaws being grown in pots to then be transplanted.
So Patty from NYC writes, can pawpaws be grown in pots? I have no yard. In other words, can you start growing your pawpaw tree and pot in a pot and leave it outside or in, in a nice big pot and never planted in the ground? And will it survive? Probably not. You would need an inconceivably large pot.
now myself as a grower, I, grow my seedlings directly in pots. I don't do field digging. And I'll grow in what's called a three gallon tea. That's a tall, that's a rose pot, three gallon rose pot. But by year four, they have to get transplanted or else they'll become two root bound. our caller from New York City, It's actually a great way to start seedlings, but it's not a permanent solution for a landscape decision.
Patty already wrote us back. She said, wow, you answered my question. Thank you. God bless those New Yorkers. Yay for New York. Okay, let's go back. Gary in the studio is going to take me, yes, to this other email we got. Now, this is from somebody whose first initial is D. I don't have his name. Maybe he'll email us.
to tell us his name and where he's from. And this is a little complicated. A question for Dan regarding transplanting pawpaws when they are field grown or bare root. So we talked a little bit about this before. Some say the pawpaws must be transplanted only while fully dormant. Others compare them to magnolias and say to dig them either when pushing buds or showing new leaves.
One nursery in the U. S. even suggests keeping the little seedlings in a moistened bundle indoors until they are fully leafed out. Then planting them in the field as usual. How do we decipher the transplanting enigma? thank you very much, Dee. Send us your name and where you're from. again, this is touching upon the idea.
Should you be planting potted trees? Should you be planting bare root pawpaw trees? And at one point, is it best to plant them dormant when the buds are opening or when they're fully leafed out? I know where I live, Susan. My best results have been late April, very early May, just as the buds are breaking.
Now, in the southern portion of the pawpaws range, down in Tennessee and Kentucky, there may be more flexibility than what we have in the northern range, but I know myself, late April, early May, have given me the best results. And you're, and you mentioned you're only planting potted, pawpaws, not bare roots, so you actually wait for them to start?
start opening their blossoms a little bit. Wouldn't that be scary for the tree? It's already active. Wouldn't that be scary for your little tree? It's already active opening its blossoms and getting ready to come back from out of dormancy. Why is it that it's good to plant them when they are blossoming?
only the early stage blossoming. I have to agree with you that if a person were in Ontario or your northern United States were to wait into mid May, late May, then the equation flips around and they're starting to and the risk is outweighing the benefits. So only early by break.
Okay, so that's our answer for D is we're going to suggest that, dormant or only just waking up from dormancy and potted is best. Now, let's see. There's one more question here. Cliff from Toronto. Can you ask your guest if he is aware of anyone grafting pawpaws in a high density spindle type, of arrangement?
Are there, is there such a thing even as dwarf pawpaws? high density growing of pawpaws. almost espalier or does that exist? Oh, I've never seen any examples of that. I know apples lend themselves to espalier. The pawpaw actually does, the less you prune it, the better it does.
And it, I don't, from my own I know, and from talking to other people, they don't lend themselves well to modified shaping their, shaping their roots or intensive grafting. So I don't know of any kind of modified spindling or anything, let alone one that works. and, I think your point is really important.
So we're comparing apples and oranges. We're comparing apples and pawpaws. apples like pruning. we shape our apple trees, we prune them every year. and so what you're saying is the less you mess with your pawpaw, the better in a way. That's right. I've had, I have three pawpaws that I'm growing in my own landscape and to this, and I've had them since 2013 when I planted them.
And I think I've invested Two minutes in pruning them in the last five years. Wow. Basically, I only removed Two crossing branches and one branch that was so low. It was a bit of a health and safety issue It's when we talked on the phone Dan earlier when we were preparing for our interview You said you know what one of the best ways to kill your pawpaw is to treat it like an apple tree that's right.
I remember when I was giving a series of seminars when I created the Canadian Community Education Program for the Pawpaw, and people were asking me with that. They could fit a pawpaw into their yard, and whether or not they should take the seminar. And my answer at the time was, if you have enough room for a semi dwarf apple tree, you can grow a pawpaw.
However, I would remind them that if they treated that pawpaw the exact same way as they treated an apple, They might kill it. So we'll go into a little bit more detail about that after, we're going to have a little commercial break in a minute and we've got some more questions in as well. So we'll talk about those after the break.
So let's just take a few minutes to listen to words from our sponsors. Dan, is that okay? You can stay on the line. Looking forward to it. We'll talk about pawpaws and pollination. We will eventually talk about how to start your own pawpaw trees from seed, all sorts of good stuff. So hold on the line and listeners, hang on.
You're listening to the Urban Forestry Radio Show on Reality Radio 101. I'm Susan Poizner from the fruit tree care training website, orchardpeople. com and we'll be back. After this short break.
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Welcome back to the urban forestry radio show with your host, Susan Poizner right here on reality radio one Oh one to get on board, send Susan an email right now in studio one Oh one.
And now, right back to your host of the Urban Forestry Radio Show, Susan Poizner. You're listening to the Urban Forestry Radio Show on Reality Radio 101. I'm Susan Poizner from the Fruit Tree Care Training website, OrchardPeople. com. So in today's program, we're chatting about fruiting native pawpaw trees.
And no, I'm not talking about papayas, a delicious exotic fruit, but the pawpaw, a native fruit. Now, even though this is a native tree in much of North America, many of us will not have tasted its delicious custard like fruit. Why is that? In today's show, my guest is horticulturalist and pawpaw enthusiast Dan Bissonnette, and he's going to tell us a little bit more about us.
But about it, but before we chat with Dan, have you ever tasted a pawpaw? I'd love to hear from you. What were your thoughts about the texture and the taste? Did you actually like it? How would you describe the flavor? Frankly, do you think it's worth it for us to plant these beautiful trees if growing local organic food and sustainability is our goal?
So you can gmail. com with your thoughts and remember to mention your first name Your location, and yeah, your information. So that's at instudio101@gmail.com pawpaw expert Dan Bissonnette, author of the Pawpaw Grower's Guide, is on the line. Hi Dan. Great to be back. let me talk.
[00:24:42] Pawpaw Pollination and Cultivation Tips
I want to ask you a little bit about pawpaws and pollination, because I know that's one mistake people make.
They plant their beautiful pawpaw tree, and if it does survive, planting, and it grows nice and big, and then it just, it becomes this leafy, beautiful tree, and you never get fruit. So what's going on there? there's probably two or three things that work. One is that the plants are very seldom self pollinating.
They need to have a nearby tree. Of slightly different genetics that can, you know, that they can exchange pawpaw with. The other mechanism is that bees and other insects that we commonly associate with pollination don't have much interest in the pawpaw. And what the animal that does mostly do most of the pollination for pawpaw is flies, particularly the blue bottle fly, sometimes referred to as the green bottle fly.
And flies compared to bees are relatively lazy. They don't fly as far. They don't tend to explore very much. So if you do have two pawpaws and they're 60 feet apart, you probably won't get much pollination. Really? So the trees should be a little bit more apart. Closer to each other, preferably, less than 40 feet apart.
So you're telling me that the flies are lazy? Flies are unmotivated. Let's put it diplomatically, shall we? So they're unmotivated to go far, away from one tree to the next. So basically, if I have a yard and I have a pawpaw tree, I probably need two if I want fruit. Yes. Now, I know if space is an issue. I, when I had my community education program, I had two neighbors who both had limited size lots, and neither had space for two pawpaw trees.
So they positioned their trees close to each other, With only a fence in between. And as, far as I know, they're getting good results. Oh, nice. That's good. Yeah. And, what about the flowers themselves? I are they, so obviously this is a cross pollinating tree so that there are there some male trees and some female trees?
Do you have to get a good part, a girl in a boy together, ? No, I, that was a, that's a common question like are pawpaws DiUS, do they come in male and female? In fact, They're not. Both, the plants have both male and female. And what's especially curious is that the flowers begin the first stage of their life as males.
giving off pollen, and as the flower matures and ages, its female organs become active, and then it begins to receive pollen from other flowers. But the pollen has to come from another pawpaw tree, so hopefully their timing works out so that there is a, a tree with some male, pollen moving off, and then a tree that's in the female phase.
It's, I guess a timing thing. Yeah, while it's possible that the very first pawpaw flowers may not, completely pollinate or be pollinated, or the very last ones, because of pawpaw trees don't blossom in unity, they'll, they might pollinate. Have a period of 10 days to maybe as long as two weeks between the first flower and the last flower so that there's always enough Activity of flowering going on that somebody is bound to cross pollinate with somebody else and here's a question that came in from Cliff in Toronto again, and He says I hear we should hang rotting meat to pollinate.
What is he talking about? Yeah, I hear that a lot and yet it's never been Tested in, formal field trials, but the premise is there because flies Don't like the same sweet smelling flowers that bees do. They're actually attracted to things like carrion and Pawpaw flowers have a very mild Subtle carrion flavor to them.
I've never known of anybody to try it certainly has merit the only concern I would have is maybe to put up piece of, carrion or a piece of meat a few days or weeks ahead of the flowering so that, I don't know, you want it to become a lure, but Not a complete distraction, because if it's so much meat, you'll have every fly in the neighborhood fixating on the meat only and not on the flowers.
So my idea would be to time it a week ahead of the blossoming and see if you can draw the flies to, to the pawpaw trees. And then once the meat is finished, then hopefully, in theory, at least, they'll move their attention to the, blossoms. So, with so many, and so much of what I do is around teaching people about fruit trees and how to grow them.
And one of the wonderful things people love about lots of types of fruit trees is the blossoms smell so beautiful. it's just lovely. And yet Pawpaw blossoms? When a pawpaw orchard is in bloom? What does that smell like? Do you even want to walk through? No, that shouldn't be an issue. Really? The scent is so subtle.
I myself have a great sense of smell and I practically have to bury my nose in the blossom to pick up anything. Walking a few meters past a tree. I shouldn't give you anything of note. Okay. We've got an email from John. John in Toronto. Each time I have a question, he says, it gets asked by the next person emailing in.
Very interesting show. Thanks. So thank you, John, very much for that email. I know also, Gary in the studio just told me we have lots of listeners tuned into the show from Italy. If you are listening to the show and you are from Italy, we want to hear from you. Do you guys have pawpaws? What's the interest of pawpaws in Italy?
I'd love to hear from you. okay, so let's see. And a quick aside, Susan, I had When I attended the International Pawpaw Conference in 2011 at Kentucky State University, one of the people, one of the delegates present was a fellow from Holland, and he was having very good success with pawpaw trees. And as I understand it, portions of Europe have, a climate and a seasonal cycle that is so comparable to, northeastern United States and southern Canada, that the pawpaws are doing okay.
Interesting. All right. let's see. I had a feeling this was going to be a lively show and we certainly have lots of really interesting questions. I have one here from Aaron in Falmouth, Maine. Okay, so here's what Aaron says. Hi, Susan. I love pawpaws, although my trees are not producing yet.
One wonderful feature of pawpaws I haven't heard you mentioned yet is that they are resistant to both deer and rodents. Oh, my gosh, that is a great feature. These animals can be very destructive to fruit trees in my area, and it's great to have some trees that don't have issues with them. Also, he says, hand pollination can be helpful with pawpaws, especially if you only have two trees.
And considering how the fruit grows in clusters. what are your comments about that, Dan? Yeah, actually, he shares a lot of great ideas. with regards to Oh, excuse me, Susan, what was his first point?
[00:32:22] Understanding Acetogenins in Pawpaw Trees
His first point was a really good one. He says Oh, the acetogenins. Yeah, resistant to deer and rodents was the first one.
Yeah, and pawpaws produce a series of chemical compounds called acetogenins. Now, when a tree is very young and it's first or second year, it doesn't produce enough acetogenins to thwart rabbits and mice and other rodents. So I would recommend, protective cage around them for the first at least three years.
But after the tree gets older and it builds up these acetogenins, which, will be found, in the new bark and the leaves and even the skin of the fruit. And this is, this is what makes them unpalatable to deers and other animals. When I go into a natural forest, a natural pawpaw grove in the forest, I find no evidence of, grazing or biting or anything like that.
Now these acetogenins are the very same thing that makes the pawpaw a natural fit for organic farmers because there really is no need, there's no business case to use insecticides on these trees. So Essentially, these chemicals, I guess they're a chemical or a hormone that the tree produces?
It's a family of chemicals, yes. okay, so now we understand once the tree is a little bit more mature, so that'll protect the tree from deer and rodents, but you're saying it's going to protect that tree from insect infestations? I have found a little bit of evidence of Japanese beetles nibbling on them in early spring before the leaves are fully formed.
But other than that, I Rarely have, I've never seen any other problems with them.
[00:34:09] Pawpaw Tree Diseases and Growing Conditions
And what about common fruit tree diseases like canker or fungal diseases and stuff like that? Do, pawpaws suffer? The only time I've seen evidence of that was when pawpaws were grown, between two buildings where there was very little, Airflow, or where there was really bad drainage.
I saw another case where a pop out branch was broken off in a nearby branch, that had been growing in shade for the first part of the season, was suddenly exposed to full sunlight and it got a little bit of sun scald on the fruit. But really, if a person has good, growing conditions, things like blight and mold and things are practically a non issue.
So I want to thank Aaron for this fantastic question. Thank you, Aaron. And let's go back.
[00:35:01] Sunlight Requirements for Pawpaw Trees
There was, we were, you were talking about sun, and Angela writes us, and Angela doesn't tell us where she's from, and she says, How much sun to grow, pawpaw? So you were talking about The ideal planting condition, obviously not between two buildings where there's no air circulation, but do that, does it need to be a sunny site?
actually, its relationship to sunlight is why the pawpaw is a lot less common across North America than what it used to be. As a young seedling, one to two years old, it should not have any direct sunlight. It actually prefers shade. And very diffused light. The older it gets, the more affinity it has for sunlight and now in a natural pawpaw grove, the older trees would shade the younger trees and as the trees get older, they move through the forest canopy and get, more progressively more sunlight.
my advice to people is, shade when they're young. Partial shade when they're say anything like four to seven years old, and then once they're approaching their fruit producing, the more sun they can get, the better. Oh, that is, that's really useful, and it's actually a question in my mind, because when you think about commercial orchards, and there are some people who are organic growers who would like to market this fruit in the future, But you think about a big, open, sunny field with lots of fruit trees in it.
So I guess pawpaws are going to be tricky in that way. Can they even be grown in, as an organic orchard? Because, or would you have to put up some temporary shelter and then take it down? It's, yeah, it's a tricky question. if we're thinking about the traditional checkerboard layout of an orchard.
Wide open. That may not lend itself to the pawpaws. I know when I write in my book and consult with people, I actually try to get them to visualize a pawpaw orchard as the extension of a habitat project. For example, if a pawpaw grove had, large oaks and hickories to the west, buffering the trees against wind and, harsh conditions, they would probably do better.
a conventional orchard. Maybe not an innovative creative orchard. It's worth considering. Very interesting. That is very cool. Now Dan I think we have a very big compliment for you here. We actually have an email from Florence, Italy How do you say how do you say hi in Italian? Chow. I don't know.
Chow. Chow. Yeah. Okay. I thought chow was goodbye. It's both. It's both. Yeah. This is Gary in the studio says it's both as our resident Italian expert. Gary? I'm Italian . Oh. Oh, there you go. Handy half Italian. Half every studio should have a half Italian person in it. So we have an email from Carla and she says, chow from Fort Florence.
Italy. Such a nice show. Yes, pawpaw are here. Beautiful fruit. Carla, thank you so much for writing. That's a great call. That is a really, nice thing. We'd love to hear from your colleagues. Oh, and Angela wrote us to say thank you for the answer. Angela is in Daytona, Florida. Oh, that's interesting. So Angela from formerly of Parts Unknown.
Exactly.
[00:38:34] Challenges of Growing Pawpaw Trees in Different Regions
But can pawpaw grow in Florida? From what I understand. It's too warm. pawpaw has four other members in its genus that all grow in Florida and extreme southern Alabama. And pawpaw is the only member of the family that requires temperate conditions. Once you, that the, as far as I understand, central Tennessee is the southern extent of its natural range.
Okay. I'm so glad Angela emailed in anyways, so it's great to hear from her. It is. I like hearing from Angela. okay, Dan, we're going to take a moment. I so appreciate the wonderful sponsors that make this show possible. So we're going to hear some messages from our sponsors. You'll hold on the line, right?
Sure. Okay. And to our listeners, please stay tuned.
[00:39:27] Propagating Pawpaw Trees from Seeds
After the break, we're going to talk about propagating the pawpaw tree from seed. amongst other things. Now, should you order your seeds from another part of the continent or another part of the world? That may be a very bad idea and we'll find out why in just a few moments.
So do you have any thoughts or questions about our conversation so far? Send an email to us live right now to instudio101@gmail.com You're listening to the Urban Forestry Radio Show on Reality Radio 101 I'm Susan Poizner from the fruit tree care training website, OrchardPeople. com. And we'll be back in just a moment.
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Welcome back to the Urban Forestry Radio Show with your host, Susan Poizner, right here on Reality Radio 101. To get on board. It's simple. It's easy. It's fun Send us an email in studio 101 at gmail. com
And now reality radio 101 resident horticulturist Susan Poizner. Hi, I'm Susan Poizner and you're listening to the Urban Forestry Radio Show. A program where we learn about fruit trees, food forests, permaculture, and arboriculture. And lots more. Thank you so much for tuning in. in today's program, we're exploring everything you've ever wanted to know about the native pawpaw tree, but have been afraid to ask.
And those of you who have tried to grow this tree, and failed miserably, as I did, know who you are. for those of you who are considering planting a pawpaw tree, It's really a great idea but you need to do a little bit of research before you go out and buy your tree or before you plant your seed. So if you have questions please do send them in to instudio101 at gmail.
com because on the line is horticulturalist and pawpaw expert Dan Bissonnette. Hi Dan, you're still there, huh? I'm still here. Great to be back. Okay, great. Okay. So why is it important to do your research before buying or planting a pawpaw tree or a plant? pawpaw seed? despite the fact that the pawpaw has a fairly large range, it is very individually adapted to its individual regions.
It's a term that I've heard called, regionally idiosyncratic. So in other words, Nebraska pawpaws are adapted to grow in Nebraska. New York State pawpaws are adapted to grow in New York State, and so on. Even though they're all the same species, moving the indigenous pawpaws from their specific area of origin can sometimes give you very mixed results if you move them from one region to another.
I'm actually an advocate of Buying, people buying pawpaws that are indigenous to their own region. It's, to me, if people are hunting for pawpaw, I would advise them to seek out your native plant growers before you go to a conventional garden centre. they're going to have the locally sourced, from the, locally sourced plants from the local gene pool.
They're not going to be grafted. There might not be the latest, hottest cultivar, but they're adapted to your region. with pawpaws, are there actually, already cultivars out there? are there grafted pawpaws? There's been cultivars since the 1920s in the United States. Oh, okay. where the problem with cultivars gets even more pronounced for those of us in the northern range is that most of the cultivars sources are, are sourced from plants that are indigenous to Kentucky and southern Ohio.
So when we see these. fine, nice looking cultivars in a garden catalog. If we bring them up to southern Ontario, state of Maine, New York state, they're not really adapted to our, northern winters. And they often don't make it through the winter or they suffer. they don't leaf out properly in a cool spring.
So really you're increasing your chances of success if you do your homework. You find. even a tree? how difficult would it be? Let's say if I live, near a woodland or whatever, and there is a pawpaw tree growing in the wild there, how would difficult it would it be to get the fruit, get a seed, start your seed and plant your tree from that seed?
it would Probably take the same amount of research as one would go to, to buy a seedling. For one thing, you should never let the seed dry out too much. If it dries out for more than a few days, the seed is actually dead. It's finished. my advice would be to, first of all, you gotta be ethical.
If you're gonna go into the forest, you only collect a small percentage, less than 10 percent of the seeds you find. Usually one or two pieces of fruit will give you all the seeds you need anyways. So I would, clean the fruit. once I get it home, and then separate it, and then stratify it in moist sand and comp moist sand and peat moss, and then put it in the refrigerator.
Not the freezer, the refrigerator. And which is, right now I've got probably about a hundred seeds in my refrigerator right now. I've had to give up shelf space for some of my favorite foods for the whole winter. And then come, about a week from now, I'll be pulling those out. And, in about two or three weeks, they'll gradually form radicals, at which point I'll be planting them out in pots under a shade canopy.
So we're looking at about four months of cold stratification, and then, a few weeks of warm stratification. When the seeds wake up, okay, and you with your this 100 trees or so you're planting, what are you going to do with them? Do you sell them? Do you plant them? Yes, I sell them. Now keep in mind, there seems to be a mixed viability of seeds, I may have 100 seeds, but maybe only 60 will actually form seeds.
And so there's a certain amount of inviability amongst them. And the odd situation I've got this year is that supply cannot keep up with demand. I, part of it is maybe associated with Susan Poisner. But I'm getting more calls than what I can keep up with. I'm actually considering a raffle system where all my potential buyers put their name in a hat and I just raffle off whoever I can supply.
that sounds like a fair idea. And next year, could you plant more? Or is that just too much work? Oh, no, I'm actually Considering expanding my nursery and gaining some more square footage, and some more shade cloth, so I can fit in, another 50, maybe 50 more plants. Now before you get emails and calls from people who are listening to this show today from all over the place, I will share something you shared with me, that you say no to people.
You ask them where they're from. And if they're from too far away, you refuse to send them your seeds or your trees. Is that true? Yeah, and that's not that I'm being a garden snob. It's part of my belief about keeping the pawpaw in its Indigenous range. like for example, the pawpaw in Ontario has four Distinct regions.
and I've read, not long ago, I had somebody from near Niagara Falls, Ontario, who said, could you send me some pawpaw? And I said, you actually have a natural populations of them in your own county. And I'd encourage you to find some suppliers and stay local. mean, but you're doing it for a reason.
So I wanted to discuss with you on Facebook, I had a really interesting chat with Chris and he grows pawpaws outside Bloomington, Indiana. And I wanted to share this because it was quite an interesting little conversation. So he planted 100 bare root seedlings last year. He planted another 100 this past weekend, and they've all survived.
He says, wild pawpaw are common in the understory of our woods. That's in Bloomington, Indiana area. The grafted ones that I purchased mail order in to 2014 haven't matured as fast as I'd hope, as I'd hoped, but are plugging along. So I just wanted to take it a step further here because then we continued to chat, and I wondered what he's gonna do with all his pawpaws.
And he said that, they, he plans to take them to a farmer's market and sell them directly, or sell them directly from the farm. He's considering pawpaw ice cream. Also, local breweries are buying pawpaw pulp to make pawpaw beer. That's amazing. So he says, if pawpaws are still hot in five years, I may make more money selling seed than anything else.
That's the case now. Interesting, huh? Very interesting. when I did the community education program for the pawpaw, we actually had a component for non growers, non gardeners. And it was just a pawpaw fruit information night where we, it was aimed at the culinary market. And we handed out portions of fresh fruit and gave ideas and suggestions for how to prepare the fruit.
And the organization I worked for at the time, we went so far as to sponsor a pawpaw dessert competition at a local fair. That sounds fun. Yeah. So what were the desserts? It's amazing the versatility of this plant, a lot of sweet breads, muffins, things like that, but also glazes and sauces, even a barbecue sauce.
And it really lent itself to like cool and refrigerated desserts. My sister made a pawpaw cheesecake that people loved and I know there are companies in the states that make pawpaw ice cream I'm trying to experiment myself with a pawpaw yogurt. I think that I think there's a lot of potential for this plant.
[00:52:56] Nutritional Benefits and Culinary Uses of Pawpaw Fruit
we have an email from Chris from North York, and it, asks, Do you know the nutritional breakdown of pawpaw, the fruit? is it healthy? Is it a super food, A super food would be a good way to describe it without signing. without going all hyperbola, that was one of the things I researched when I wrote my book.
And it's actually, I actually have a chart that I locate based on findings from Per University of Purdue. Okay. In which they talk about an admirable protein value, a vitamin C that's comparable to a similar sized orange. potassium that is comparable to bananas. And, basically it has, I believe it has all the amino acids that human beings need to live.
I must say that is quite amazing. When you think about native plants and native fruits, so much of what we grow, the apples, the pears, apricots, none of it is native. None of it, this is, it seems to me, one of the very fruit, few native North American fruiting trees. And it's very special.
I, agree, Susan. Admittedly, the term superfood is a bit of a marketing ploy, but what I find almost amusing is that all the so called superfoods in the last five years come from areas far, from our listening area. Thailand, China, Japan. Perhaps the superfood has been growing under our noses all this time.
[00:54:29] Final Thoughts and Listener Questions (Acknowledging and troubleshooting the thirsty taproot)
Yeah, So the challenge is, and we'll go back as we end off the show, we'll go back to the beginning. The challenge seems to be starting them successfully. Those early years, the vulnerable years. I've got some more, comments from Facebook. Sherwin, I don't know where Sherwin's from, but he writes, Pawpaws have a very deep taproot.
If you cut that off too short, you can jeopardize the survivability of the planting. And I have, yeah, I have other people saying, here's, Envid from Colorado. I tried planting in Colorado and they got too much sun and died. They were in a good location with improved soil and plenty of water. I won't be trying any time again soon.
That's sad. but, and yet there's others. I go back to the results I had of using rose pots, preferably three gallon rows. Tall, tall pots, let that root tap root grow uninhibited and then at about the three to four year mark planning them out at that stage, they can handle direct sunlight and a little bit of wind, but they're not so big where they're getting them.
Two pot down. Yeah. And to balance it out, I also have success stories here from Facebook. Megan from Addison County. Pawpaws grow well and produce well here in Addison County in Vermont. it's a mixed bag, but I guess the moral of the story is keep trying, Is that what you did?
Keep trying and keep learning. Yeah. Yeah, like ever everything to do with fruit tree care. it's a constant journey to learn more and It's so interesting. So there you go. So Is there anything else Dan you've got you know, we I guess really we want to tell listeners how they can get your book because I'm sure I'd like to add is with regards to good soil We talked about the root sizes the root conditions, but in my own soil Like, I worked in a blend of topsoil and sand, and I actually carved out holes that were five feet wide and two feet deep.
Now, with regards to my book, I sell it by mail order. I'm gonna have it set up on my Facebook page, which is NatureScape, or you can look up Dan Bissonnette. And I'll have instructions on how people can order the book, and I can ship it to Canada as well as the United States. That's perfect, and I'll also, when I post the podcast version of this show, I'll make sure that there's a link where people can order your book.
soil. And we got another question from Cliff in Toronto about minerals. What kind of minerals do you need to think about in the soil? Like the special nutritional requirements or is just good, nice organic matter in the soil good enough? There are varying views of that. I know the organic farmers who grow them, they won't have the same fertilizer regimen as conventional farmers, but because It is one of, it is the largest natural fruit in North America.
It does take some nutrition to produce that product. And tired Marginal soils will give you proportionate results. The more soil, the more you can invest in the soil, it's organic content, and it's nutrient profile, the better results you're going to have. Yeah, and I loved what you said earlier in the show, the idea of integrating it into a, if anything's good in a sort of more permaculture integrated, landscape with other plants and trees, then, pawpaw's a good one for that.
the phrase is, semi wild orchards. Yes. It was a term that was applied to, or community based agriculture for pawpaw, and I think that's something to think about. I think it's a great idea. Dan, I am so happy that you came on the show today. An hour goes by fast. It does. It's great to talk to you too, and we will be in touch and I want to get that link so I can share it with the listeners and the many people who listen to the podcast afterwards and I'm so sorry for them that it's too late for them to ask questions online, but maybe they can send you those questions.
Sure, I'll be happy to take some questions. And actually, quick email again from Aaron in Falmouth, Maine. We heard from Aaron before. I have good luck establishing pawpaws with the shade of blue grow tubes or tomato cages covered in a row cover. I like that. that's probably working good for the seedlings, yes.
Yeah, that's good for the seedlings. And let's see, I think something else came in. Was there another email? I know myself, when I had to Protect some young seedlings when I was new at this. I actually went to the hardware store and bought the screening for storm windows And fastened it to the cages that I made for them and that gave me decent results.
Oh, perfect So it really it's all about being creative Yeah and innovative and innovated and understand It's all about understanding the trees we're working with. It's all about educating ourselves on these trees and their needs, how we can fulfill their needs so that they can then maybe give us back some beautiful fruit and beautiful cleaner air and a beautiful environment and all that good stuff.
That's a great way of looking at it. Okay, Dan, thank you so much for coming on the show. You're very welcome. Thanks for having me, Susan. Take care. Goodbye for now. Bye bye now. That was Dan Bissonnette. Dan lives and grows pawpaw trees and other native plants near Windsor, Ontario. I so appreciate Dan being on the show, and I really appreciate you guys, the listeners, for tuning in.
Special thanks to those of you who submitted questions via email and Facebook. I love to hear your suggestions, your questions, and your stories. The Urban Forestry Radio Show is just about over for this month. My question to you is, did you enjoy it? I hope so. And if you did, please be sure to subscribe to our podcast at orchardpeople.
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And download my free 11 page ebook called Growing Fruit Trees That Thrive. You've been listening to the Urban Forestry Radio Show. I'm Susan Poizner from OrchardPeople. com. I am so glad you tuned in and I look forward to seeing you next month.
You've been listening to the Urban Forestry Radio Show on Reality Radio 101. To learn more about the show and to download the podcast where I cover lots more great topics, you can visit OrchardPeople. com. This show is broadcast live on the last Tuesday of every month, and each time I have great new guests talking to me about fruit trees, food forests, and arboriculture.
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Thank you so much for tuning in. It's been wonderful to have you as a listener, and I hope to see you again next time.
Thank you for listening to the Urban Forestry Radio Show with your host Susan Poizner, right here on Reality Radio 101.