Orchard People

[00:00:00] Introduction and Welcome
The following program does not necessarily represent the views and opinions of Reality Radio 101, its advertisers and sponsors, or its listening audience. Listener discretion is advised.
Welcome to the Urban Forestry Radio Show, brought to you by the Community Orchard Network. In this podcast, I'm going to take you on a journey. We'll learn about fruit trees, permaculture, food forests, So if you're a gardener and enjoy growing your own food, if you love trees and especially fruit trees, or if you're just interested in living a more sustainable life, you've come to the right place.
I'm Susan Poizner, your host for today. So get ready, roll up your sleeves. And let's dig in to today's episode.
Good afternoon and welcome to the Urban Forestry Radio Show with your host, Susan Poizner. Right here on reality radio 101 to contact Susan live right now. Send her an email instudio101@gmail.com
and now right to your host of the urban forestry radio show, Susan Poizner. Hi everyone. Welcome to the show today.
[00:02:00] The Rise of Hard Cider
Heart Cider has become very popular in recent years, and I've heard stories about some people quitting their day jobs, planting an orchard. And producing their own artisan ciders. That, to me, sounds like a beautiful life.
But you don't have to quit your day job in order to make hard cider. It can be a really fun project, and it's also pretty easy to do, according to my first guest on the show today. Ben Watson is the author of Cider Hard and Sweet. History, traditions, and making your own. And today he'll give us a mini class about cider making.
He'll also answer your questions on cider making, cider apple varieties, and more. And in the second half of the show. I know so many women who are passionate about fruit trees, and they're involved in growing them and caring for them. So why are there so few women taking jobs in aboriculture and forestry?
That's a question I'll discuss with Katrina Van Osh Saxon. She's an arborist, a tree climber, and a faculty member with Fleming College's Urban Forestry program. And she's working to bring more women into these careers. And then of course, there's you. During the show, I love to hear your questions, comments, and stories related to the topics we're covering today.
You can email in your comments live to instudio101@gmail.com and I'll read them on the show. You can also check out the Orchard People Facebook page and you can post pictures and stories and questions there too. But first, let's talk cider!
[00:03:50] Cider Making Basics with Ben Watson
On the line is Ben Watson, author of Cider Hard and Sweet, History, Traditions, and Making Your Own.
Ben, how are you today? I'm good. How are you doing, Susan? I'm doing very well. can you tell me why is it that making cider and drinking cider has become so popular recently? I think there are a lot of reasons. One is that the people are more interested in Local foods and locally produced foods and cider in a lot of cases, although there are big national and even international brands of cider, a lot of, the best ciders are produced by local people, in small communities and, and that's attractive to people.
And also, it's seen as a. a pure natural product in a lot of cases, and there's a fascination too with people who can't drink beer because they're trying to cut back on gluten, or they're somehow gluten intolerant, because Of course, cider doesn't have any gluten in it, a number of reasons, I think, have led to it, but I think largely it's because of the artisan and local food movements.
Yeah, it's interesting. With regards to the artisan food movement, do you also know people who have, packed in their old life and started a new life, maybe, with, is that happening near you as well? Yeah, I can think in, in, Massachusetts where I do a lot of down there.
There are people who have second career, learned about growing apples or sourcing apples, even if they don't grow them themselves, and, and making cider. And there's a one, a fellow, or two fellows, over in Springfield, Massachusetts, Cidery called the Artifact Cider Project, and they're doing some interesting stuff there.
and there's a one in, right outside of Boston in Somerville, Mass., called Bantam Cider. two young women who, who operate that, cidery, and they've done quite well over the years, and have several brands that are we'll talk about later in the show what makes a really special cider.
But my first question for you is, you had mentioned to me in the past when we spoke that cider making really isn't very difficult. Can you tell me a little bit about how you learned? Yeah, sure. I, learned because I was interested in it, but also because I had run into a couple of early cider makers back in the 1980s who were really among the first in New England who were really making good cider.
And, got interested in writing about it and knowing more about it. And, and then, I realized it wasn't a really difficult thing to do, so for my book, before I told other people how to do it, I just started making it myself and realized it was ridiculously easy as long as you keep a few basic things in mind.
It's akin to making wine more so than beer. People think, craft brewing is easy and it is, but cider making is even easier and more foolproof than, than, making your own beer. So take us through the steps. what are the steps to making an easy cider? we'll start with a shortcut cider.
Sure. I wrote the book, and when I wrote the book, I was trying to encourage people to make their first batch of cider, not to necessarily become experts, but, the best thing is, if you don't, if you aren't actually pressing your own cider, which is a fun thing too, but it involves more infrastructure, I guess you'd call it, you can, go out and just buy a good cider from, a local orchard, preferably unpasteurized.
You can ferment So, yeah. pasteurized cider, but you don't want to use anything that has preservatives of any kind in it. Now you're talking about a sweet cider, just a, an unfermented cider. A juice, yeah. In the U. S., is the only place in the world where cider doesn't automatically mean, hard, what we call hard cider down here, it just isn't, it, means it everywhere else in the world.
It means an alcoholic product of some strength or another, but in the U S because of prohibition and the banning of alcohol sales back in the 1930s, they, orchardists in order to survive came up with this term, coined this term sweet cider. And, so that essentially is what everybody else in the world would call juice, So you go to, so you go buy some juice and you're some cider, some sweet cider at your local orchard or whatever. Okay, what's the next step? Next step is you want to, just get a, again, a fermentation vessel. And it doesn't have to, you don't have to go out and buy a large, Carboy, unless you want to, a glass or a plastic carboy, you can do that, but you could just find, like a recycled, one gallon wine jug or something, and, and just start with a gallon of cider.
And what you want to do is to, clean, that out well, and if you want to sanitize it, even more with something, sodium percarbonate, which is called Be Bright, it's sold as that. Or you can use a very, weak bleach solution to sanitize your minimal equipment that you'll need. But, clean it out, rinse it out well, and put the cider in there.
And realize that cider, honestly, if you've ever had cider and put it in the refrigerator for more than a couple of weeks, you know that it wants to turn into alcohol. It eventually will start turning. So all you're trying to do is to control the fermentation. And at the beginning, you want to leave, when it starts to ferment, and it gets frothy, and it may even bubble over the top of the container, don't worry about that.
Just keep it cleaned up, and wait until that first vigorous fermentation gets done. And at that point, you want to try to exclude. air from the cider and let it continue fermenting slowly on its own for a few weeks anyway. and you do that by going out and buying fermentation lock or an air lock, just a little plastic thing with a cork, and it might set you back a dollar or a dollar fifty, something like that, and just put it into the top of the jug, something that fits into the top of the jug, and fill it with, some sort of sanitizing solution or just even plain water, and, let it glub away happily, and when it stops glubbing, and it It, it will, fall clear as we say.
it, the haziness of a natural cider, the sort of pectins and everything else will fall to the bottom of the jug and you'll be left with a sort of a golden colored, liquid that, you bring in a second. gallon jug and just take a tube and rack it off into the second jug and clean it off those leaves.
So you're just taking the golden liquid and the other stuff. Leaving the leaves behind, yeah. And, and then again just, let it, go for a while longer to finish up the fermentation. And, when you don't see any bubbles coming up into the airlock, you can, start, give it a try and see what it tastes like.
And if the taste isn't quite to your liking at that point, often, Just doing it slowly and in cool temperatures like in a, outside closet or a garage or something like that will, will do a nice slow job of the fermentation and you don't want to rush it. I mean it, somebody once asked me, oh I want to make cider for my boyfriend for Christmas and it was already October and I said, which Christmas?
Because it benefits from cider benefits when you're fermenting it from sitting around for a few months, in my opinion, and in most people's opinion. a few months, does it get better if you were to leave it for six months or a year? I would say Yeah, at a certain point it doesn't get much better.
It doesn't necessarily get worse, but you can certainly bulk age cider. I have a couple of five gallon carboys. One of them is two years old right now, and I haven't even bottled it yet. And it's perfectly fine, as long as you keep that airlock topped up with water or sanitizing solution. And, And, and leave it to its own devices.
It should be fine for at least a couple of years.
[00:12:46] Advanced Cider Making Techniques
what about yeast? Are you telling me that you don't need to add yeast in order to make hard cider? You don't absolutely have to do it, because, again, apples have yeasts all over them. on the skins, on the inside the apples, there are all kinds of natural yeasts.
The thing is that most people do use a, A commercial yeast strain, which you can buy at any beer or winemaking supply store. and they do that because, those are a bit more tolerant of sulfur. If you want to, suppress the wild yeasts, you would add a little bit of, sulfites, to the cider at the beginning, and maybe when you rack it off for the first time.
Just to make sure that there aren't any bad Bugs that, will develop in there, in the cider, although it's pretty unlikely if you're using North American apple varieties because they've got a good bit of acidity which helps to prevent disease or, bad bugs from, from getting in there. but, you want to use something that's fairly neutral to see what the cider tastes like for the first time.
And when I say that, it would be something like a, some sort of a champagne yeast. One of the more common ones is just like a Red Star, makes a pasture champagne yeast. And that will ferment at low temper fairly low temperatures. It'll ferment to complete dryness, which, For a lot of people is an acquired taste.
I mean your cider Apples only have about half the sugar of grapes. So if you're using a commercial yeast strain It will ferment it until it's very dry and it can still be fruity and very tasty, but a lot of people Taste you know with the draft ciders that are out on the market is skews a little bit Sweeter than complete dryness.
And so just to confirm here, you talk about fermenting at low temperature. There's no cooking, there's no putting in a cold basement, you can do it anywhere at any time of year. No problem. Yeah, you can. it's usually the temperature that I would suggest. if you're using a champagne yeast, I would suggest the temperature should be, anywhere from the 40s to maybe a little bit over 60 degrees or 65.
But, if it's a warmer temperature, it just means that it's going to ferment a little faster. If it's a cooler temperature, it may take a little bit longer. we have a question that just came in from Andy. I don't know where Andy's from, but he says, Great show. Are there any cider kits that offer complete items beside the apples?
Of course, to make cider. Thank you. Oh, and he says listening in NYC, New York City. Yeah. if you go to, if he goes to a, like a wine making supply place, there are people who have kits and, you can put together your own kit fairly easily. or you can, There may be some, people who are clever and have put together all the components into one cider making kit.
But, again, if you just, research in my book or other, sources, you'll be able to find the minimal amount that you'll need. And, like anything else, as you get more serious and you want to make more and you want to get better at doing it, then, you can get fairly sophisticated and move on to higher and better things.
But, to start out, yeah, it isn't a big expense. And again, that's why in my book, I say you can even, if you can find a gallon jug, a couple of one gallon jugs in recycling, so much the better, it's less of an investment for you. Absolutely. So if you try it once and you don't like it, you've spent how much?
Ten dollars? Oh, maybe. Maybe. For the cider, it might be six dollars. I think the price of cider these days down around mine area is six dollars and fifty cents, so it's, that would be for one gallon of cider. That's fantastic. I got some questions here from Cliff in Toronto, and he asks, does the type of yeast affect the flavor of the cider?
That's an interesting question. So if you do decide to add the yeast, will it taste different? Yeah, it can. that's why I suggest for people starting out to make, to see what, have a baseline, you can use all sorts of yeast, but I suggest doing it, the sort of the, fast fermenting and, pasture champagne yeast or any kind of champagne yeast that's, called, Pristamoose, the various other kinds are all, French champagne type yeasts and, They don't tend to give a very, they don't tend to lend a flavor to the cider.
So what you're getting is really the pure fruit, whatever the product of fermentation is for those apples. If you use other kinds of yeasts, ale yeasts some people use, or, Riesling yeasts, or something like that. If it's fun to experiment with that and to see what you get out of them, but they will probably lend more flavor.
Of a character to the finished cider than the champagne yeast will. Very interesting. He also asks, and you had mentioned this before, he says, is there a taste difference between pasteurized and unpasteurized cider? But actually I think what he's referring to, he says, while in Salt Spring Island, the local cidery had pasteurized its cider to prevent exploding bottles during transportation.
So I guess what he's saying is, does pasteurizing it after you've made it change the flavor? Is that something people do usually? After you, you're talking about after you ferment it? After you ferment it. you can pasteurize it. And in fact, in my book, I have the sort of more advanced chapter at the end.
And I talk about ways of, the biggest question that I hear from people is how do I make a cider that isn't bone dry? that isn't, Totally dry and pasteurizing is one of the ways you can do that. And I explain how to do that in the book. You can do an in bottle pasteurization of your cider.
Generally people do that, if you haven't fermented it to total dryness. If you're bottling it at something in higher specific gravity than zero, or close to zero. If you want to keep a little bit of residual sweetness from the fruit in there. Okay, we got another email from Teresa, and this is interesting.
She lives in Bermuda. She said, Where is Mr. Watson's book available? I live in Bermuda. Thank you. you should be able, if you can buy it through, Amazon. it is available on amazon. com. that makes it easy. I don't know any retailers in, Bermuda. I'd be happy to come over and, investigate.
But, offhand, I'd say that your best bet might be to order it online through somebody like amazon. com. And Teresa also, I can, I can, if you do find out, Ben, if there, that there is somewhere in Bermuda, we can always email her back with the answer, or put it on our Orchard People, Facebook page.
So now we've talked about the easy way, to make it, but I'm sure that you are going to tell us about the subtleties.
[00:20:07] Exploring Apple Varieties for Cider
some people, they, make their own cider from scratch. They choose the apple varieties. how would that be different? yeah, that's the real art of cider making.
is when you know, you understand something about different apple varieties, and that was what really attracted me to cider. I love apples, and I talk a lot and write about apples a lot, but, knowing the vast number of heirloom apples and modern apples that can be used to make cider, it's really interesting to Come up with a blend of apples if they're available to you or you can find them to either grind and press your own or, sometimes you can find orchardists who will may be making a good blend of, cider apples and, making a really, high quality coffee.
sweet cider, which is what makes a good hard cider, really. it's the, it's, the, product that you're using. And, the only way to really, I can say, to really get experience in it is you can read. about different varieties. I list over 70 varieties that are good for North American varieties for, cider in my book.
But, the best way is just to go out and put your teeth in the apples and see what kinds of qualities they have. The basic qualities of apples are sugars, acids, so sweet, tart, and with some apples, and especially the European apples that are being used more and more for High quality cider making those actually have an astringency or tannins in them sometimes Unpleasant, they're not good to eating apples They call them spitters around here because you put your teeth in them And a wild apple can sometimes be like that too.
But the things that make them bad eating apples give a kind of a structure to your cider. Even if you're pressing bitter apples, it won't taste bitter if you're blending them with other things. And it gives a kind of a chewiness and a nice quality to even just the juice, but especially to the finished hard cider.
You know what?
[00:22:32] Sponsor Break
I think what we'll do is we're going to take a few minutes and listen to a word from our sponsors. But after that, let's go into a little more detail about cider apple varieties. And we're also going to talk about the Franklin County Cider Days, which you are quite an expert in. Ben, you're okay holding the line for a few minutes?
Absolutely. Okay, everyone, you're listening to the Urban Forestry Radio Show on Reality Radio 1 0 1. I'm Susan Poner and we'll be back after this short break. Friends, while I came up, it's full the best. If you ever change your mind, don't hold your breath.
Hey, Sally, your garden is looking great today. Thanks, Gary. Your lawn is looking a little bit dry. Ah, that's okay. It's all going to change. Soon I'm going to plant a fruit tree in my yard. I'm thinking an apple tree or maybe peach. That sounds great, but do you know what you're doing? fruit trees are easy.
You just plant them, water them, and wait for the harvest, right? Actually, that's not quite the case. What? Organic orchardists spend a lot of time protecting their fruit trees from pest and disease problems. Really? And in order to thrive, fruit trees need to be pruned every year. I didn't know that.
I'll tell you what, before you buy your tree, why don't you go to orchardpeople. com. You'll learn lots about growing fruit from the blog, and there's a fantastic monthly newsletter with seasonal tips and reminders. Maybe I should check that out. Yeah, then if you really want to move ahead You can sign up for OrchardPeople.
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Welcome back to the Urban Forestry Radio Show with your host, Susan Poisner. Right here on Reality Radio 101. To contact Susan live right now, send her an email. In Studio 101. At gmail.com.
And now right back to your host, Susan Boisner. You're listening to the Urban Forestry Radio Show on Reality Radio 1 0 1. I'm Susan Poizner, and in today's show, we're exploring turning our newly harvested apples into apple cider. My guest today is Ben Watson, author of Cider Hard and Sweet, History, Traditions, and Making Your Own.
[00:25:52] Deep Dive into Apple Varieties
So Ben, we've been talking about how to make cider, but let's now go into the nitty gritty about what apple tree cultivars work best in the ciders that we make. So does our choice of apples work? really make a big difference? it can. the I would say that, just in terms of what makes a good cider.
When people ask that, I always say, more than one variety and ideally more than a couple of varieties because it's really the blend. Most apples, can be really good and have great qualities for eating, but it's rare that an apple One variety alone will have all the qualities that it takes to make a really outstanding cider.
There are a few exceptions. In the beginning of the show, we were talking about making a cider from, a cider that you just pick up a sweet cider. so that would probably be one variety. So you're saying that it would still taste good, but it wouldn't have, I don't know, the depth or the qualities.
I think most people who make good Sweet cider, if you try it, and it tastes complex and rich and, has all the qualities of a good sweet cider. It's probably not made from just one variety of apple. It may be a preponderance of one variety as a base, but it won't just be one kind of apple that good cider makers or good orchardists are making cider from.
Actually, we've just got, we've got an email from Lisa here in Toronto. Now she asks, we've been talking about hard cider and she asks, is there a difference between hard and soft cider? So what is soft cider? I, don't, I, she might be talking about soft cider. She might be talking about, sweet cider or, essentially cloudy juice.
Oh. Unfermented cider, basically. Yeah, unfermented cider. hard cider is an unfortunate term that a lot of cider makers in the U. S. are going away from, too. And they're just calling it cider, like the rest of the world. hard cider is a term from, originally used in Britain, for cider that has sat around on the shelf for a few years too long, and it may be a little stale tasting.
but it, here it just means, in the U. S., it just means hard, it's, a shorthand term for alcoholic cider. Okay, so let's go, again, into the nitty gritty. What are some of the best varieties that you can think of that people might consider using to, make ciders, if they can get hold of these varieties?
Yeah, there are so many There are so many that can be used to contribute to a great cider, but I would say, there's one, there was one smart alachy guy, a writer back in the 19th century who said, who gave advice when someone asked him to, planting a hundred trees in an orchard, if I had a hundred tree orchard, what would you plant for cider?
And, he said, yeah. plant 99 golden russet trees, and the last you may choose your own. So golden russet is sometimes called the, the champagne of cider apples. And it is an excellent variety. I don't know that I would go quite that far overboard with planting 99 out of 100 to a golden russet.
But it has very high sugars, and it is fairly, Like a lot of russets, fairly disease and insect resistant and fairly easy to grow. hangs on the tree for a long time, doesn't mind cold at the end of the season. And, it really is an excellent, excellent apple. But there are so many others, I would, I saw a question on the website about King David, someone asked about.
That's right, that was Adam, I think from Michigan. So he says, do you like King David is an excellence, one of my favorites. I didn't grow it myself, but I've used it before. But, there are all sorts of heirloom apples. Northern Spies, Baldwin. even varieties like Macintosh, which is a it is a, a narrow variety.
I wouldn't use all Macintosh, but in my book what I do is I, as I, indicate, percentages of, trying to, come up with an intelligent blend of apples, and Macintosh happens to be a very aromatic apple, just, and so is Red Delicious, for that matter. And, in a certain percentage, that's great, to have 10, 15 percent of that kind of an apple if you have a choice, and you have the luxury of choosing what, apples you want to use.
But, I'd say there are a lot of heirloom varieties that are really good for cider, but then there's, one of my favorites is a modern apple, called, Gold Rush, which is, came out fairly recently, it's not that old, and it's a rather late, Variety for harvest, but I know people in the north country of New Hampshire that is zone 4, close to zone 3, who can grow it successfully and have it mature.
And it's just a wonderful apple and it's almost immune to scab. So that's a big thing for an organic grower. that's great, easy to grow, much easier anyways. you mentioned before the qualities that you're looking for. You're looking, you said, for a balance between the sweet flavor, the tart flavor, and then you mentioned tannin.
does the tannin contribute a flavor, or what does the tannin do, and what kind of apples can provide that tannin? it doesn't contribute a flavor so much as a structure, I would say. so just think of it as, as like wine grapes. Wine grapes have a lot of tannin in them, some of the wine grapes.
So They're not grapes that you would put on the table and eat for dessert. they, taste, so they have those, a bitterness to them. And, and something that makes it not good for table use, but are exceptionally good for, making wine. It's the same thing with cider apples that have tannins in them.
And if you don't have access to an orchard that has some of the European cider apples, the bitter sweets and the bitter sharps that have come over, Mostly bitter sweets. Then I would suggest, using some, wild apples or what some people call crab apples. But, going out and foraging from some of those trees and, again, try them out.
And if something tastes bitter and awful, that might be a good thing to put a bushel or two in your cider press. Wow. to contribute the tannins that you want. So again, it's all a balancing act and it's all pretty much to your, taste. and again, having some aromatic apples in there, like a Macintosh or something that will give it a nice aroma.
in addition to, in addition to the sweetness and the acidity, it can be useful too. On our Facebook page, Kate, writes from Alberta and she says she would love to plant some trees for cider and pies. Oh my, she says, in, in her yard. she says if you had to start from scratch and suggest one tree for a newbie at cider making and tree growing, which apple tree would you recommend?
I take it when she says one tree that she doesn't mean one single tree? Exactly.
[00:33:52] Choosing the Right Apple Tree for Pollination
Because that could be challenging from a pollination perspective unless you have other apple trees in the, in the, area, depending on what variety you plant. But if she did want to plant just one tree, I would say that a good choice would be, an apple, an old apple called Grimes Golden, which used to be, thought and may still be thought to be something that, is associated somewhat with Johnny Appleseed because it grew near, a cider mill that he and his brother owned in West Virginia.
And but that is apparent of, Grimes. Golden Delicious. And in fact, even Golden Delicious might be a good one, too, because both of them share the quality of being excellent pollinizers. They, and Grimes Golden in particular, self pollinates. It's known for that. Whereas most apples really benefit from having a different apple growing somewhere near them so that they can swap pollen.
Yeah, that makes total sense. So hopefully that's helpful.
[00:34:52] Best Apple Varieties for Pies and Cider
But if you wanted something for pies, too, as well as for cider, I guess the best dual Or one of the better dual ones that I could think of would be either Baldwin, which is an old Massachusetts apple from about 1740, or Northern Spy, which is something that actually a lot of producers in the Hudson River Valley and the Finger Lakes in New York State use for their cider.
They really love it. it sounds good.
[00:35:19] The Science of Cider Making
So it sounds like it's a real scientific experiment. Every time you're making your cider and you taste it, I guess you take notes and you see what you like and see if you can reproduce it again next year. I know that you said you, every year, use the same varieties.
[00:35:34] Challenges in Consistent Cider Taste
Does it taste the same every year? no, not always. we always have some differences. Because some do better and some do worse. Very down apple, because of drought conditions down here.
So we don't have access to some apples. So you have to, cider was always something that when you made it on the homestead, you made it out of what you had. And, there's, you can make good cider out of a lot, a blend of apples is more important probably than the blend of apples, if you know what I'm saying.
Gotcha.
[00:36:09] Franklin County Cider Days Festival
If people want to learn more, I would imagine going to the Franklin County Cider Days would be really fun. And I know you're involved in that. Can you tell me a little bit about it? Where is it happening? What happens? When? It's always held on the, this is the 22nd year that we've held this, festival.
And it really is unique in that it's a county wide agricultural It stretches from the easternmost towns of Franklin County, Massachusetts to the far western fringes. And we have lots of orchards. It's a historic apple growing and cider making region. And it's the most rural county in Massachusetts.
It's in north central Mass. Fairly close to the Interstate 91, which runs up and down, if you're familiar with that area. And, and it's centered around the town of the city of, or small city of Greenfield, Massachusetts. But we have events in a lot of the hill towns. It quite, it's really beautiful, landscape around there.
[00:37:16] Events and Workshops at Cider Days
And so you have a cider tastings? We do. we have educational workshops, most of which are, are free. and that's always been a big part of it. We, it started out as something that was really strictly for, amateur cider makers pretty much because there weren't that many people except for the founders who were making cider commercially.
In the country at the time, but, it's become something that's, both for amateurs and now we have a lot of commercial producers from all over the country and, and, even Canada and farther afield who come to it every year, and, we have a large open tasting called the Cider Salon, which is our central, event on Saturday, the first Saturday.
And then we have some taste workshops on Sunday that are smaller events where you can taste heirloom apples or, a cheese and cider pairing, which is always very popular. we do a cider appreciation class, where you get to try a lot of different products. So it's, and some of the orchards offer special blends that you, if like the fellow who was interested in doing, getting a kit.
We have a, a. Cider Making 101 class that is a, an event where you actually purchase the, equipment that you'll need for fermentation and, several gallons of a good blend of cider. They usually have, this orchard has two or three blends of cider that they make up for the, class and, that's a good deal.
Sounds like a lot of fun.
[00:38:57] How to Attend Cider Days
So what's the website for people who may want to consider going? The website is just Cider Days. Excellent. I hope people will check that out. In the meantime, Ben, it's been really wonderful to talk to you. So hopefully many people will be inspired to give cider making a try.
Great. Thanks so much for coming on the show. Bye bye. Bye bye. That was Ben Watson, author of Cider Hard and Sweet, History, Traditions, and Making Your Own. Now I got an email from Sue who asks how can she listen to past broadcasts of the Urban Forestry Radio Show? you can do it really easily by just going to orchardpeople.
com slash network. And while you're there, you can sign up for our iTunes podcast feed. And, yeah, so it's easy and it's good.
[00:39:49] Encouraging Women in Arboriculture
Now don't go anywhere yet because Coming up after a few words from our sponsors, we're gonna talk about girls in the trees and how one group is encouraging more women to train for jobs in our bora culture and forestry.
You're listening to the Urban Forestry Radio Show on Reality Radio 1 0 1. I'm Susan Poiser. And we'll be back after this short break. Lord knows that this world is cruel And I ain't the Lord, no, I'm just a fool Learning love and some, but I don't make them love you Must I always be waiting?
Where am I? This place is amazing! There are birds, bees, and fruit trees, and I'm in the middle of a big city. You are in Philadelphia! Our city is growing more beautiful each year thanks to the Philadelphia Orchard Project. We plant fruit trees, berry bushes, and other edibles in city parks, gardens, and other public places.
I can see that. Raspberry canes, fig trees, and peaches. If I lived nearby, I would never go hungry. That's one of our goals. We want to help communities grow their own food by teaching residents how to plant fruit trees and care for them. We focus on the neighborhoods that need it most. It sounds like a great project.
How can I help? How can I learn more? Please visit our website at phillyorchards. org to volunteer or donate. And you can also follow our Urban Orchard blog. phillyorchards. org I will definitely check it out. Thanks so much and have a great day. This message was brought to you by the Philadelphia Orchard Project.
Welcome back to the Urban Forestry Radio Show with your host Susan Poizner. Right here on Reality Radio 101. To contact Susan live, send her an email. In Studio 101.
And now, right back to your host, Susan Poizner. I'm Susan Poizner, and you're listening to the Urban Forestry Radio Show. A program where we learn about fruit trees, food forests, permaculture, and lots more. Thanks for tuning in. Now, I love fruit trees. But then, I also love trees, all other types of trees, like native trees or ornamental trees.
I love them for their beauty and for all they do to clean our air, to stabilize our soil, to shade and cool our communities. Let's face it. Trees rock, and they make our lives so much better. Those qualities draw a lot of people to want to work with trees and to care for them. But the question is, why are so many of those people who work with trees?
In our community, men. Now I do think that is starting to change. This weekend is the 2016 North America Tree Climbing Championship. And it's taking place in Niagara. It attracts arborists from across the continent. And most are men. But there's also a strong group of women involved in this climbing competition.
So why don't more women become arborists? And should this change?
[00:43:42] Interview with Katrina van Osch Saxen
I'm going to speak today to Katrina van Osch Saxen. She's a faculty member with Fleming College's Urban Forestry programs, and she's one of a group of women in aboriculture who's working to attract more women to this noble profession as climbers, urban forestry technicians, And Katrina is on the line now.
Katrina, how are you today? I'm well. Thank you, Susan. How are you? I'm very well. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Thank you for inviting me to be a part of your show. It's very exciting. I wanted to ask you, how is it that you started to work with trees? it goes back to when I was, a young girl growing up, in a kind of urban rural setting.
my parents did a really great job of getting us outside, to experience the natural world. And really that's where it all began. And before I really was conscious of it, I, I, followed a career in education. I went to university and I also attended college. But when I When you boil it all down, when I really started to think about it, it always took me back to being outside, and so it was a natural progression for me to Start working with trees.
Now, as a kid, were you a tree climber? Were you one of those kids you had to pull out of the trees? Absolutely, I was. And I remember, I was thinking about it the other day, I remember climbing so high in one of our friend's trees and looking down and thinking, having that first kind of moment of fear. yes, I was.
That's so funny. Now, tell me the group. You started a group, or you're involved in a group called Women in Aboriculture. Yes. what is that about? back in the spring of 2016, I had an idea here at the college that I work at Fleming College to have a, have an event or host an event where we attracted women of all ages, young and old, to come to the school and to be mentored and talk and meet with other women in industry, whether it be aboriculture, urban forestry, or traditional forestry, and I had A group of wonderful ladies, from the Women in Aboriculture, come and, climb with us and be with us, as part of that day.
And at the end of the day, we all went to a, went out for dinner, and they invited me to be part of the Women in Aboriculture Committee, which is part of the International Society of Aboriculture. So they've been, a group for a while, and graciously asked me to be part of that committee. So it's really exciting.
So, it's funny because you and I talked and I, went online and I looked for some articles on, women who are arborists. So I found this, this article in Modern Farmer. It's called Women with Chainsaws Confession, Confessions of a Lumber Jane. And she writes here, it's really interesting. One paragraph.
She says she's been working as a lady arborist for more than two seasons. And she says here, I know how to set a rope, line in a tree to direct each limb as they fall to the earth one by one. I own and regularly study a book about tying knots. At my best friend's wedding, I was the bridesmaid with nicks and cuts along my arms in every photo.
My co worker, Catherine, is a former weightlifting competitor who can toss logs like toothpicks. And she's also one of the only other female arborists I know, she says. I read that, and it sounds fantastic, but it does sound like, for me, I love trees, but that sounds scary for somebody like me. Is that the only kind of job that you would have if you become an arborist?
it depends. not, by the furthest stretch of the imagination, arborists can, Play a lot of different roles in urban forestry. So definitely one of the highest risk jobs would be a climber, where you do have to use a chainsaw, working at heights, etc, but we do fill a lot of other positions.
So working from the ground. So if climbing is not your thing, then a career in urban forestry, where you manage from at a larger scale, single trees, And a lot of it is municipal work, but there is also consulting, tree inventory. So there are a lot of great new pathways opening up and really, it's changing right before our eyes.
And I think educational institutions, Fleming being one of them, is really trying to keep up with that pace to provide, employment opportunities and careers for people who may not want to climb. and I know for me, I came back to school, to get my Arborist certificate a little bit later on. And, I definitely had a greater fear than when I was a kid climbing trees.
yeah, there are definitely other career pathways. Now, are you a climber today? Do you do that kind of work? Not so much anymore. My work here at the college requires me to be more on the ground. But I'll tell you that whenever I have the opportunity to climb, I definitely do. And a lot of times now it's more for enjoyment and study and just to appreciate and connect with.
tree without having to worry about, production. My husband and I had our own tree service for 12 years, so there was, a lot of, climbing and Physical work for those years. I think there's also something for those of us who, aren't involved, to understand that there's a lot of training involved in climbing.
There's ropes, there's safeties, there's security, that it isn't just, hop up the tree, use your chainsaw. That you are secured in some way. That's right, absolutely. And people, they can, There are some courses that are shorter and some are longer, and then you've got college courses that you can take.
But definitely there is a lot of information that, that people need to learn before they strap on a saddle and fire up the chainsaw.
[00:49:47] The North American Tree Climbing Championship
and that's what we're all about, is safety, So, coming up this weekend is in, is the North American tree climbing championship.
Yeah. Tell me a little bit about that. What's going to happen there? So at the North American tree climbing championship winners from different places in North America Ontario being one of them Meet at a central location. So this year it is at The Niagara Parks Botanical Gardens in Niagara Falls, to compete against one another.
so it's, it's like the semi finals and then the finals where, the climbers will go head to head in all of the, same types of, events that they have climbed at previous competitions. So two weekends ago we had the Ontario Tree Climbing Competition, In St. Thomas, and our Ontario climbers, one of the females, Krista Stradding, who also sits on the Women in Aboriculture Committee, will be climbing there this weekend.
So I'm excited to be able to attend and root her on and cheer her on, as well as all the other competitors. That's amazing. That sounds like a lot of fun. Is there a sell by date? If you go into become a climber, is there a certain date, a certain age that you think, yeah, maybe not? That's a, tough question.
And I think it really depends on the individual and their aspirations. I would encourage anybody who feels like they want to know to get out there and to do it. Personally, I can still climb, so I wouldn't say that there is a limit. And I think it's a whole new world, working in the canopy of a tree safely.
so no, I, don't think so. If somebody has their mindset on it, I think it's really all about the mindset. they obviously, you have to be physically able to do it. but if somebody really wants to and puts their mind to it and has enough time to practice, then it's definitely achievable.
Actually, it's, it sounds amazing when you talk about. Seeing the world from up in a tree, seeing the trees, seeing the life in the trees, things must look really different when you're up there. Oh, they do . They do. I, I often have people ask me about, having a fear of heights. and it's a different feeling.
So I don't like standing on a, tall bridge where I'm not secure. But when I'm in a tree in my saddle and I'm secure in my ropes, it's a, I am comfortable. and, you get to see what. I call it the bird's eye view. You get to see, and the squirrels, what they see, humans become tiny little ants on the ground when you're, up in a canopy.
it's a very enjoyable job. That sounds amazing. It's interesting.
[00:52:25] Opportunities in Urban Forestry
So I've been working with fruit trees for many years now, and I found it really interesting to see that, arboriculture is really a, quite a, there's so many similarities, but there's a lot of differences. Do arborists often, are they often called to work in fruit trees and is there training for arborists?
It's interesting that you ask because there is a movement and we talked about this earlier in our discussion previous to this about the growing popularity of urban orchards and planting trees in the urban setting. And so I personally haven't done a lot of fruit tree pruning because a lot of people, that are the homes that we worked at really didn't have, a lot of fruit trees or they did the pruning themselves.
But I think because there is this new movement, to grow your own food and to. Growing fruit trees in the urban environment that there will be, more of an opportunity for arborists to get their hands on. Fruit trees as an example here we planted fifteen fruit trees last year, pears and apples and so we are hoping to meld that into the curriculum as we move forward.
So that students can have the opportunity to prune, and manage fruit trees because they are, they do require different care than, other tree species. And so it would be great for us to be able to include that in our curriculum. Oh, that's wonderful. So if you could give advice to somebody, a young person, a woman in particular, or anybody who about a boriculture and considering that as a profession, what would you say?
What's special about it? It is unique. It's challenging. Every day is new. No matter whether you're working for a municipality or a private company, every tree is different. it requires problem solving and so if, if you're worried about getting bored on the job, it will not happen in a borer culture.
And urban forestry too, I know a lot of people I've run into, especially females over the years here at the college who say, I'm really interested in trees but I don't want to climb. I have the solution, urban forestry, where you get to do a lot of tree management from the ground. so you may be diagnosing, pests or pathogens on trees, especially fruit trees as And so there are a lot, I say, do it. If you are interested, take that next step. And that's not my own advice, that comes from Faye Johnson, who is one of our keynote speakers here at the Women in Trees conference in April. her, advice for finding a new career and moving forward when somebody said, what do I do next?
Her advice was take the next step, and I think that was great advice. Do it. I think that's like slogan as well. But, it just putting that one foot forward and whether it's researching or making a contact about maybe, Getting into an educational institution in your area of interest, whatever it is, just take that step.
Nice. Oh, it's interesting. We just got an email, and the title of the email is, Wow. It's from George. Now, George doesn't say where he or she is from, but, he says, Wow, I'm getting dizzy just listening to Katrina. Ha! Amazing. Oh, that's great. from Orlando, Florida. So I think really what you're doing is really definitely, game changing.
I think for a lot of us, there are certain professions that we just don't even think about that they're appropriate. And I've gotta tell you, I've been working in the world of community orchards for many years now, and there are, if not, there are at least 50%, if not more than 50% of the people involved in caring for fruit trees.
are women. I believe it's more than that. I think it's probably 75%. So there are certainly women out there who resonate with trees, who, really want to go there. And, it's so intriguing and it's so exciting what you're doing. So I'm going to be at the competition, at the championship, not climbing, but I'm going to be learning a lot.
So just to remind people, it's this weekend, October 1st and 2nd. It's in Niagara, the 2016 North American Tree Climbing Championship, and it's probably on the ISA, the International Society of Aboriculture's website. Is there any more information you would direct people to, Katrina? as far as that, as far as that event, the parking will be right off the Niagara Parkway, so at the Niagara Parks Botanical Gardens, you can't miss it.
It's right adjacent to the Butterfly Conservatory, so easy to find. And I hope to see a lot of people there. It's going to be an excellent weekend. It's going to be a lot of fun. And with regards to women in aboriculture, do you, folks have a website yet, if people want to find out more? We do. We have a Facebook page.
We have a website. you can also, Leave messages for us if you're interested or you want any more information about women in aboriculture. Every year in the wintertime, it's in February, there is the Ontario, International Society of Aboriculture Conference. And this year, again, it's in Niagara Falls.
That's awesome. but there is a Women in Aboriculture Breakfast that is held each conference, and we're trying to build those numbers, and it's a great time to network and to be supported by people who are already in industry, and All walks. So we have educators, we have climbers, consultants, municipal representatives, and it's just a great place to feel comfortable, ask questions, and share your information and your experiences.
thank you so much, Katrina. I so appreciate you coming on the show to chat with me. Thank you, Susan. I appreciate your time. Okay. Hopefully see you soon. Goodbye for now. Bye bye. Wow, very interesting stuff.
[00:58:29] Conclusion and Upcoming Episodes
So I want to say good luck to all the arborists that are in the Tree Climbing Championship this weekend.
And if you're listening and if you're an arborist or if you're just interested in getting some more training in fruit tree care, arborists can earn up to eight continuing education credits by taking my online course in fruit tree care.
So in the course, whether you're an arborist or just somebody who's interested in learning more, you'll learn about fruit tree cultivars, specialist fruit tree pruning, protecting fruit trees from pests and disease. So that's all for the show today. I can't believe it. It went very quickly as always. It was really wonderful to speak to my special guests.
Ben Watson, author of Cider Hard and Sweet, History, Traditions and Making Your Own, and Katrina van Osch Saxon, and she's a faculty member with Fleming College's Urban Forestry Program. Now if you missed part of the show, and if you, or if you'd like to listen again, click You can listen online. Just download this podcast by going to orchardpeople.
com slash network and you'll access this episode once I put it online. You'll also access previous episodes covering all aspects of fruit trees, food forests, and permaculture gardens. Now, while you're on the site, please do sign up for my monthly newsletter at orchardpeople. com. I'll remind you about upcoming podcasts and you're going to get lots of free content, articles, interviews, ebooks, and that kind of stuff.
So tune into the show again next month and we'll have more great guests. You're listening to the Urban Forestry Radio Show. I'm Susan Poizner. And I look forward to seeing you next month.
If you want to learn more about the Community Orchard Network, I've created a page on my website where you can find out lots more information and learn how to sign up for our newsletter. Just visit www. orchardpeople. com slash network. And you can read our frequently asked questions and check out the free webinars and podcasts that we've recorded.
Tune in next month and you'll meet some more great guests, and you'll learn more about fruit trees, permaculture, and forest gardens. Our show goes out on the last Tuesday of every month at 1 p. m. Eastern Time. I'm Susan Poizner. Thanks for tuning in and I'll see you next time. Thank you for listening to the Urban Forestry Radio Show with your host Susan Poizner right here on Reality Radio 101.