Orchard People

[00:00:00] Introduction and Welcome
The following program does not necessarily represent the views and opinions of Reality Radio 101, its advertisers and sponsors, or its listening audience. Listener discretion is advised.
Welcome to the Urban Forestry Radio Show, brought to you by the Community Orchard Network. In this podcast, I'm going to take you on a journey. We'll learn about fruit trees, permaculture, food forests, So if you're a gardener and enjoy growing your own food, if you love trees, and especially fruit trees, or if you're just interested in living a more sustainable life, You've come to the right place.
I'm Susan Poizner, your host for today. So get ready, roll up your sleeves and let's dig in to today's episode.
Welcome to the Urban Forestry Radio Show with your host, Susan Poizner, right here on Reality Radio 101 to contact us live this afternoon, right now, send us an email instudio101@gmail.com.
And now right to your host of the Urban Forestry Radio Show, Susan Poizner.
Hi everyone. Welcome to the show today.
[00:02:01] Understanding Fire Blight
Now, the more you spend time working with fruit trees, the more you can understand them and their needs. And you start to see some patterns too. So after years of growing fruit trees, I know what drought stress looks like. If it doesn't rain enough, some of the leaves turn brown at the edges, or they go completely brown.
Now that's your tree's way of saying, Water me, please! But sometimes you'll see that the new growth on the branches of your tree doesn't look so good. The leaves and the branch tips, they go brown and they die. Sometimes you even see a hook at the end of the branch. Now that can be a sign that your apple, pear, or Asian pear tree has fire blight.
It is a nasty disease, and it's been spreading around North America in recent years. So my first guest is going to tell us all about fire blight. And answer our questions about how to protect our trees from this deadly disease. And in the second part of the show, we're going to talk about something a little more cheerful, persimmons.
Persimmons may not be as popular to grow as apples or pears, but I'm not exactly sure why not. If you get the right variety, they're said to be absolutely delicious. And, as a bonus, some persimmon trees are actually native to North America, so they're easier to grow here. So our second guest is someone who understands persimmons better than most.
It's William Preston of Preston's Persimmon Patch in Maryland. But first, let's talk about the dreaded fire blight. And my guest today is Dr. Carrie Peter. Assistant Professor of Fruit Tree Pathology at Penn State Fruit Research and Extension Center. Now, if any listeners have questions for Dr. Peter, please email them in to instudio101@gmail.com. Carrie, how are you today? I'm doing very well. Thank you. Can you tell me a little bit about your work? What is it that you do? my role is the tree fruit pathologist for the state of Pennsylvania. So I take care of managing tree fruit diseases, educating growers and how to manage diseases of their tree fruit tree.
So tree fruit includes apples, pears, peaches, nectarines, apricots, plums. And one of those diseases that I, help growers, try to manage and not get the better of them is fire blight. So to what extent have you been seeing fire blight in your area in recent years? I started in 2013 and that was a relatively calm year and then in 2014 I called that the year that Mother Nature hazed me and that was an awful fire blight year and I actually, that was actually considered an epidemic.
year and the entire Northeast was affected by fire blight last year, in 2014, and it was also affected in 2015 as well. And the reason was due to the environmental conditions. It was warm and wet during the right time. And then this year, the season for fire blight wasn't as bad. but we dodged a bullet.
However, there are our neighbors around us and the north and east of us weren't as lucky. So it's, been a challenging few years.
[00:05:42] Fire Blight Management Strategies
what exactly is fire blight and how does it spread? The fire blight, it's a bacterial disease and it's native to North America. so that's what makes it especially challenging.
It's endemic in North America. And, the fire blight, it The most vulnerable stage of the tree is during bloom time, and the bacteria finds its way to the bloom by either, insects or splashing rain or water. It can infect the bloom, due to openings in the base of the bloom. And when the bacteria enter that, those, openings at the base of the bloom called nectaries, it gets in the bloom and in the tree and it can cause disease right there and then in the blossom.
So we call that blossom blight. When the disease progresses in the tree at that stage, you can get oozing, bacterial ooze. And it can continue to spread throughout the tree, and that's when we can see the characteristic shoot blight, where the young, tender shoots of growing trees are especially susceptible.
We'll see that shepherd's crook, that characteristic shepherd's crook or candy cane. Now, when we see that, the disease progression in the tree, it will kill the plant tissue, and it will create a canker. That canker will serve as the overwintering source from year to year as a place for, the fireblight bacteria to perpetuate.
And so the bacteria will, live at that region of dead and living tissue. And so that is where the source of bacteria that is available to cause disease comes from every year. So that's really interesting. So they, so it sounds like it comes in with, at bloom time, it sneaks in via the blooms, and it sounds like it works its way through the branches into, I don't know, does it get to the trunk of the tree if you wait long enough, or?
Depending on how old the tree is, the younger the tree, the more susceptible it is to get infection in the trunk. And so if it's a brand new tree, you could have possibly tree death in the same year. Exactly. I've seen that. Unfortunately, here in Toronto, we've had severe problems this year. Apparently, it started last year.
I didn't see it this year. Boom. It's been all over. It's been very challenging. so Okay. You talk about Caners. Now, for those listeners who may or may not know, the caners canker can be all sorts of things. It can look like an oozing sore on the tree or an hard patch. Is there something in particular that the canker, a firelight canker will look like?
A dark patch or it often, as far as what it, how it's different. oftentimes you'll see at the base of a dead. area of tissue. So that's a real telltale sign that if you see a dead shoot, And you trace back that the death of the tibetan shoot, the necrosis, the browning area to the back, you can see, it looks like a sunken area of the branch, it looks, the bark looks wrinkled, it's blackened or brown and It's, there's a misconception that this is the plant's response.
It's actually a good thing, and that's incorrect. The canker is actually, it's dead tissue that is caused by the bacteria. it's interesting.
[00:09:06] Listener Questions on Fire Blight: Management Strategies
We've had already a lot of emails coming into the studio, and one of them just jumped up, jumped out at me. So it's from Lisa here in Toronto. And she sent some pictures.
Unfortunately, I don't know. I'll send them to you later to have a look at. But she says, here are a few pics of Asian pear and sweet cherry trees at San Romano Orchard, which is where she is. Can you help us identify what is trying to attack these trees and the best way to deal with it? I would like to know if it's acceptable to prune each individual suffering leaf.
And also, does a fruit tree have the ability to heal itself in any way? Now, I know this particular orchard and, in some of the trees you're getting, it starts off, at least with the pear trees, I'm not sure about the cherries, but, you get blackening around the edge of the leaf. So she's just wondering, hey, can I get this early?
What comment do you have for Lisa? So as far as, if it's, if it is fire blight and the season's dry, you could get ahead of it where You could prune back the branch. You don't necessarily want to just prune off the leaves. You need to prune out the wood. And the wood is what has to be removed, because if it truly is bacterial, the bacteria is going to be in the plant's vascular system, in the veins.
And that's basically the major conduit system in the plant that allows transport of water and nutrients. So it's important to get it, you want to prune ahead. Of where you see the decline of the branch. So in the case of Asian pears, that's what you would want to do. And in the, case of cherries, depending on what it is, again, if it is something either bacterial or fungal, you would want to get, you want to prune beyond that stage of where you see the disease progressing.
And during the summer months, the tree can form a callus over where you prune. And that is a way it, quote unquote, heals itself, it heals that area, so it no longer is susceptible to something that could be penetrating into the tree at that open wound, because a pruning cut is a wound. pruning in the summer, oftentimes, is better in some cases, for some diseases, because there is recovery time for the tree.
but the main management strategy for fireblight, though, is actually to wait until Winter to be able to prune out the diseased areas because we're ensure that the bacteria has stopped moving through the tree. It stops spreading when it stops spreading that minimizes the chance of you. the pruner of spreading the disease because there is a high probability of spreading the disease.
during the summer months, just because of the conditions that could be present, environmental conditions that could be present at the time. That's interesting, because that's what I was going to ask you. when you read about fire blight, it always says it starts with the blossoms, and so you think, hey, it's July, it's August, nothing to worry about.
If there's fire blight in there already, in my tree already, okay, I have a problem, but if the tree, if another tree doesn't have fire blight, I don't have to worry about it getting in, because it's, that's not blossoming. Is that the case? Not necessarily. if the tree if you don't have blossomed like that is terrific.
However, if your tree continues to grow through the summer months and oftentimes depending on how much rain occurs, we could get growth through the whole season. But typically fruit trees stop growing in July. And but up until that point if there's succulent shoot growth. Meaning nice green tender shoots.
Those tender shoots are still very susceptible to fire blight and getting the fire blight infection that characteristic shoot blighter, the shepherd's crook and Insects are very drawn to succulent shoots. they could feed on those succulent shoots creating a wound. And if there's any bacteria around that bacteria could then cause disease on that brand new shoot just because of that insect wound.
So there's still growers still have to be or in homeowners still have to be pretty vigilant until about halfway through the summer when The trees stop growing. They start shifting their energies from pushing out new growth to, if the tree produces fruit, they shift their energies to producing fruit, like halfway through the season.
And so when the tree, branches and shoots are no longer green and succulent, we call it now hardening off. the bacteria can't penetrate those shoots. So growers still, and homeowners still have to be pretty vigilant until about, mid July or so. So when you say vigilant, it's don't prune it off in the hot season.
Just because, from what I understand from what you're saying is that the pruning itself does create a wound. Perhaps that bacteria can get in there before the wound heals itself up. So maybe Could very well, depending on how prevalent the disease could be, in that area. And since I know, your region is experiencing a pretty bad fire blight year, if there's more than, two or three shoots on a young tree, it really behooves the person to not do anything because you could make the situation worse by pruning out.
the branches, you're creating wounds, there's a chance of spreading the disease because the tree is encouraged to grow now that it's being pruned and that's just going to cause more succulent shoots. Which become more susceptible to fire blight, so it's a vicious cycle. It can be a very vicious cycle during a bad fire blight year.
Okay, I got a couple more. Let's go through a couple more emails. First, I'm going to go through, this person didn't give his or her name, and I don't know where they are, but let's see what he or she says.
[00:15:15] Impact of Fire Blight on Different Trees
Hello, we have an apricot shrub which did not bear any fruits this year. She says, I think fire blade is a problem.
The whole plant leaves were shiny beginning this summer and I saw bumps on the branches. Should I remove them? from what I understand, fire blade, can it hit an apricot shrub? No, fire blight is not doesn't go towards stone fruit. That's not one of its hosts. So peaches or cherries or apricots that I'm aware of.
It's mostly it's, it means more towards the apple family. Crabapple, pears, and then the ornamentals in that same family as the apples and pears and crabapples. So it could be some, with the apricot tree, it could be something else that could be going on. You know what, when she says, I saw bumps on the branches, I think in terms of an insect problem, perhaps.
It could very well be, or it could be a fungal problem, depending on what's going on. Okay, we have another quick question, so let's see here. I've got, this is from Wendy in Central Ontario. So she says, over the past few weeks we've noticed what we believe to be fire blight on a Chanticleer pear tree we planted four years ago.
Today we pruned the lower affected branches we could comfortably reach and we'll put them out for garbage collection. There is very little evidence of the blight higher up in the tree. We're hoping to water it every day, and if we do it may resist this incursion, as otherwise it's very healthy. There are no other fruit trees in the vicinity, she says.
So she says, should we take a wait and see attitude? We would rather cut it down, which would be sad. Then have the expenditure of having it treated every year. Wow, Wendy, that's Peterborough, Ontario. what would you suggest for Wendy? it sounds like they've done the right thing as far as pruning everything out.
The other, factor is the age of the tree. the age of the tree is going to play a big role in How well this tree is going to survive next year, if it's a fairly young tree, I'd say under five years old, and it's had that much fireblight already that they've pruned out, there is a cause of concern that the tree may die, but if it's a very, if it's an older tree before talking about 10 years old, fireblight bacteria move much lower in older, woody tissue.
So anything that is going to be two years old or older, And very older is going to move very slowly. So there's a chance that the tree could live with the disease. And you may see evidence of the disease year to year. As far as how they've managed, managed the disease thus far, your best management tool is removing any cankers from the tree.
Any of those diseased areas that you see. That is your number one. Best management tool, it's so interesting you talk about like bigger older trees versus younger trees and you say the younger trees get hit so hard and I have seen that firsthand here in Toronto. My question for you is, how is it that we even still have.
Apple and pear trees out there. Fire blight is so devastating. and, I know that there are times when it gets bad, but, was it always like this in history where, you know, for, years, fire blight would be ripping across, continents? did we have these problems in years past?
I believe that the problem has always been there. What's changed are The varieties that are popular and the tree fruit growing systems. So years ago, we're talking anywhere from 50 to 100 years ago. The way that apples were grown was big standard trees. these were 80 foot trees. You would need very big ladders to be able to reach all the fruits.
if fire blight would ever attack these trees. there'd be a really small chance of the tree being, succumbing to the disease. and as, but as years have gone by, management systems have changed where we now grow much smaller trees. Because it's easier to prune, it's easier with regards to labor and picking, you can get much more fruit in an acre than you could with the standard or the semi dwarf tree system.
And consequently, the most popular varieties nowadays are very susceptible to fire blight. for those who like Gala. Fuji, even Honeycrisp. These are all fire blight susceptible to, Fuji and Gala, for instance, are very, fire blight susceptible. Honeycrisp is a little more tolerant. But we're growing susceptible varieties.
We're growing varieties that are a magnet for fire blight. you are also growing small trees that are very susceptible in their first five years of being in the ground. so And at the same time, we still have those big trees, those older trees that have been around 20 30 years that become the typhoid mary for fireblight.
And so we have this bad perpetuation of the disease where Those big old trees aren't being pushed out, with the same speed as those new orchard systems are going in. So unfortunately we just have this bad cycle going on where there's a constant source of the bacteria available, and we have the constant susceptibility always present there too.
And I think that's why we're seeing more of an issue. the other reason is, our climate's changing. And we're seeing the optimal disease conditions occurring at the most susceptible time. in the most optimal time for the disease, and that's at bloom time. When it's warm and wet during bloom, those are really challenging conditions, to manage fire blight.
It's interesting because when I teach my certificate course in beginner fruit tree care, one of the five modules is on how to choose a fruit tree. And you'd think, you go to the garden centre and you pick up one, right? Isn't that how you choose it? Yeah. So not, you really have to consider the root stock, the size of the tree, the varieties.
It involves a little bit of research. It's not rocket science, but what a difference if you've chosen the right tree. If you know what kind of diseases are flying around at the moment, you can really prevent a lot of these problems. Very much And even just in the, not only, planting trees that are more tolerant to fire blight, more they're a little more durable.
They could either, the disease doesn't progress as fast, for apple trees, but even ornamental trees, crap apples, oh, and ornamental pears. Just being mindful of those ornamental, plantings in the home landscape as well is very important. Resistance goes a long way and, grow and homeowners. Have to realize resistance doesn't mean immunity so it doesn't mean that the tree will never get it But it just means that it can handle the disease in such a way that it's not going to kill the tree let's have a few more messages from listeners.
So here we've got some short ones Derek in Southeastern, Ohio and he says Never had it this bad in Southeast Ohio. Some pear trees are devastated, no apple trees bothered, luckily. I find that really interesting, because, it's similar here in Toronto. The Asian pears and the pear trees have been hit, badly, but the apple trees, not so much.
Is that, does that mean it's a certain strain of fire blight? It's probably not the certain strain. It may all be linked to susceptibility of whatever variety is and bloom time. So apples and pears don't all bloom at the same time. So that is going to affect their susceptibility to the disease. And in the case of the folks in Ohio, Their pears well a pears are extraordinarily susceptible their lightning rods all pears are both ornamental and Eating pears are very susceptible to fire blight and depending on what apple cultivars or apple varieties they have They may have either Had trees that weren't blooming at the right time for the disease to be Able to take over or the tree the trees that they have are resistant to it.
So that may be why That's most likely why we're seeing differences in susceptibility and the differences in disease, coming out in certain areas. Interesting. Okay, another, quick email here from Alan in Pittsburgh.
[00:24:30] Preventative Measures and Treatments
we'll talk a little bit, later, in a few minutes, a little bit in more detail, but he says, can doxycycline spray be used preventatively to help prevent Fire blight.
So why not jump to it? Are there sprays that you can use? Whether, let's start off with organic growers, home growers. Are there sprays that can be used to protect your trees? So your tree is healthy, you want to keep it that way. So during bloom time, what homeowners, organic growers could use, probably their best bet is copper, an organic copper.
Copper is a biocide, so it's going to kill the bacteria. And you're going to want to apply it when the blooms are open, when it's been warm and or wet. because you want to basically kill the bacteria before it has a chance to get into the nectaries of the flower. In the case of what the email had asked about doxycycline, streptomycin is the antibiotic of choice.
that commercial growers use to protect the blossoms. Streptomycin will kill, the bacteria that's in the bloom. And, but growers use this very judiciously. Antibiotics should only be used during bloom time because they do not work anytime else outside of bloom time just because of the nature of the disease.
but it's being very mindful of what the growing of what the conditions are during bloom time. As like I said, warm and wet around bloom time. A protective spray needs to get on to, the flowers. So in the case of organic copper, it's probably your best bet. If you're not worried about, fruit rusting or fruit damage, because sometimes copper can cause fruit damage.
but in the other case, for other folks, a non organic approach is streptomycin. That is the best surefire spray out there that will protect blossoms from, Okay, so we have another question here. Lots of this must be a real problem because we, just have so many questions and comments coming in.
so I think, here in Toronto, you're thinking, Oh, my goodness, maybe we all, we are the only ones that have it. And it sounds like that's not the case. but we've got a message here from Greg. Now, he says, he's got three trees that have died in succession this summer. Oh my gosh, there's nothing so heartbreaking.
Oh boy. The first, was a mature plum tree that withered and died over the course of a weekend. Oh my goodness. The dead leaves are still hanging on the tree two months later. Then, he says, two to three weeks after the plum, an adjacent young hybrid pear It's warren is the variety which I've never heard of but succumbed in a similar fashion going from green to dead in a matter of a few days.
He says almost a week ago our other warren pair has died in the same way. Tips of newly dead tissue are still plump and pliable and there is not the evidence of twig dieback and inward progression of the disease. So it doesn't sound like fire blight. He says that he would expect with fire blight. So he's wondering is this could this be root rot?
could it have spread from the plum? poor guy. He's in Austin, Texas, by the way. I'm sorry. He's in Austin, Texas, by the way. Okay. depending on how much rain has fallen, it could be a root rot disease, especially if it's just going down from one tree to the next and that and root rot diseases can easily collapse a tree in a very short period of time.
And, the best way of determining if it's root rot is you dig up the tree, look at the roots, and if the roots are very, pungent and smelly, and if they look brown and thin, that's indicative of a root rot disease. it really all depends on, what the age of the tree is, and also, what have been the weather conditions that could have, exacerbated a potential root problem.
but I personally saw this last year in Pennsylvania when Our region, in a very short period of time got anywhere from 13 to 20 inches of rain and trees were dying of root rot diseases as a result. the important thing to make notice of is what were the environmental conditions at the time.
Good advice, Greg. I hope, I hope you don't give up. Try again. That is just so heartbreaking. Oh, for sure. And, actually it comes, I have seen pictures. There was a problem here in Canada in Nova Scotia, where there was a serious, I think it was 2014 or maybe 2015, terrible problems of fire blight and entire orchards of.
Thousands of trees got hit. how, frequently would you see this kind of thing?
[00:29:33] Fire Blight and Environmental Factors
That occurred due to, another phase of fire blight called trauma blight. And I believe that occurred due to hurricane or, it was a, tropical storm, one of the tropical storms that made their way up the coast.
And what happens with trauma blight is that this bacteria, this fire blight bacteria, will just colonize leaves without causing disease. They'll just hang out there, minding their own business, until they get an opening. And an opening can be trauma due to high winds, tornadoes, hail, any of that, anything that can cause injury.
In the case of what happened in Nova Scotia, that you had that horrific storm that came through. Whipped the trees around. There was probably a layer of the fire blight bacteria everywhere. And, they just didn't get out in time in order to protect their trees. Because when you have a trauma event, that is the only time post bloom that you're allowed to apply an antibiotic.
And what that will do is that it'll protect the vulnerable openings that have occurred due to the trauma, and limit. the infection of the fire blight occurring. So that's what happened in Nova Scotia a few years ago. Is that during the months of the summer, growers have to be and folks, homeowners to that have little Orchards in their yard.
They have to be especially concerned about, very severe weather conditions because, it's a bit, this is a bacteria and there's lots of different bacterias out there. There's friendly bacterium, bad bacteria that will just colonize surfaces. of plants, and they just will lay there until they receive, the cue to cause disease, and the cause of disease is, or the cue would be, a damage, opening, an opening into the plant tissue.
So that's what happened, trauma blight. No, it's just terrible energy. And that only happens when we have, really, if there's a hailstorm. When you have that massive die back or massive die off is due to that. Yeah, it's so important that, whether you're, a homeowner with one tree or two trees, that you really know how to care for the tree and actually watch it meticulously and know what to look for because, one neighbourhood tree gets sick and they all get sick.
and it's just we all have a responsibility to understand what all these diseases look like. There's not that many, but just so that we can protect our trees and neighborhood trees. I'm just going to read through a couple of other quick emails. Larry in Mississippi So we're getting these from all over the country.
It's wonderful. it's wonderful to hear from people. It's so sad to hear that it is so widespread. That's for sure. It's just so sad. Okay, he says in Mississippi, moderate fire blight. After four years, almost blight free. He says, I expect next year to be bad. I guess because, it came, maybe he's a pessimist, or maybe he just, sees that there's, that's what happened here in Toronto.
[00:32:48] Fire Blight Outbreaks Across Regions
There was some fire blight, last year, and then boom, this year, boy, all over the place. I've also got from Sarah, in central Ohio. Fire blight took hold bad here in my older apple trees. One will need to be completely removed, hoping to save the others. And we've got, let's see, a Debbie in Western North Carolina.
This year was particularly bad here in our little part of Western North Carolina. We lost a lot of trees. Let's see, one more. Dan from Michigan. I've heard from my friends in New York and Vermont and he says he's in a lot of different areas that it's a hotbed of fire blight this year because of weather conditions.
He says my trees are all pretty young and I have not dealt with it yet personally here and that's in Michigan. Oh, so I hope he can keep those little trees protected. For sure. Yeah.
[00:33:44] Managing Fire Blight with Copper and Bordeaux
you had also, you talked about using copper spray. What about Bordeaux? Is that equally good? Different? Same? Bordeaux?
that is, a good mixture, Bordeaux is copper sulfate and lime, and what it does is, is actually the lime will, it, that buffers the copper sulfate, so it makes it less, it helps the copper stick around a little longer, and also it tempers the phytotoxic effect of the copper, so the damage that the copper could, Do on leaf tissue or fruit tissue.
Bordeaux is, that is a good, method of managing fire blight. The one thing is, if people don't care about what their fruit look like, and they don't mind russeting, that netting. Appearance on apples, then that is, that is a way of managing fire blight at bloom time as well. Yeah, it's interesting because, if we know that fire blight is all over this year and next year, it might be worth the sacrifice.
you've got a healthy tree. Okay, the fruit may not look bad. Perfect. your tree is protected.
[00:34:53] Weather Conditions and Fire Blight
Is it possible that in two or three years time, fire blight will no longer be a problem in these places that we're hearing from, whether it's Toronto or Michigan or all over the country, does it get to be a big problem briefly for a year or two and then it passes?
It all, boils down to what are the weather conditions, each season. like for instance, in Pennsylvania, the reason why, it wasn't much of a problem for us this year is that our balloon was at the end of April. And then we had three weeks of cold weather, whether that was where the average temperature was below 60 degrees.
And those were not optimal conditions for the fireblight bacteria to replicate and take hold. That's how Pennsylvania dodged a bullet. And unfortunately. Other regions in the area, their bloom came later, where it was much warmer, it was much more humid, it was much wetter, and that's why. it all depends on when the bloom time is, and also the environmental conditions.
[00:35:55] Pruning and Canker Removal Tips
The other thing that will, basically perpetuate the disease are, is leaving those cankers around. If people become mindful of Paying attention to when they're pruning their trees during the winter and removing those dead areas, that is, goes a long way in perpetuating the disease for years to come.
Removing those cankers, burning the tissue, just getting rid of that bacteria the best they can. That sounds like really good advice. But again, being aware when you are actually pruning, what time of year you are pruning those trees. You'd want to be pruning in the winter months because that's, you can see the tree when there's no leaves on the tree, so you'll be able to see those darkened areas, those sunken areas that may, that look very different from healthy bark tissue.
So that's the best time to prune. January, February, March. I've got a few. I'm afraid I might not get to all the emails, but one really interesting one here. It's from Deb in Southeast Ohio.
[00:37:00] Cicadas and Fire Blight Spread
She says, This year was bad due to the cicadas. She says she thinks they spread the bacteria as they traveled from tree to tree, cutting slits in the bark.
She says she did a lot of pruning as soon as the cicadas were done, and the pear and the apple trees recovered once the weather got drier. Tell me about that. Cicadas, huh? cicadas are an insect that have piercing, fucking mouth parts, and those are the type of insect That can really wreak havoc in an orchard and help spread the fire blight mainly because of the type of wounds They create in the tree and in the plant tissue And so in that case if fire blight was already there was probably this Layer of bacteria that was just hanging around and when the cicada came in or the cicadas came in and created those wounds The bacteria was able to get into the tree much easier.
So that, that's actually a really good point to bring up because we don't, I think about little tiny insects like plant hoppers or aphids, but cicadas can really, they can do a lot of damage in more ways than one. In this case, it was an example of, being a vector. for the fire blight in essence. Wow. okay.
[00:38:20] Effectiveness of Biological Fungicides
I've just one more question and we'll answer it quickly and then I'm afraid we have to wrap up and it's again from Greg who wrote us previously. let's see. I don't know if I remember where he's from, but anyways, he says, can you discuss the effectiveness of biological fungicides like bacillus subtilis and bacillus pumillus?
Excuse my pronunciation. How are those at addressing fire blight? So it's so I've evaluated those products over the last few years and if the disease pressure is low Meaning that the disease conditions aren't very extreme in the sense of very warm Very wet, and for a long period of time. It seems that those products can help However, they do not match in efficacy to the more conventional products.
And the one thing is that those products have to be applied often during the bloom time because they can get washed off. They don't stay around very long. But when it comes time for managing fire blight, if that is your If that's your only choice, it is better than nothing, to put something out there to protect.
but unfortunately, the biologicals, I'm researching it. There's folks in Michigan that's booking that are looking at the biological. How can we optimize them to be more, more robust in our conditions east of the Mississippi river? because our weather conditions of. Heat and humidity and moisture and rain and dew and fog during the season.
Those all impact the efficacy of these biologicals. And that's one thing to keep in mind when folks are wondering why does it work here? Why doesn't it work here like it works out west? the west doesn't have humidity. And that is why certain products can work much better out west. the The, mission continues to try to find something that's comparable, to conventional.
But, but like I said, we have not seen anything that, that matches it, but it's better than nothing if you don't have other options. That sounds like really good advice. Dr. Kari Peter, it has been so interesting to talk to you. I've learned a lot. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Thank you so much.
Goodbye for now. Okay. Take care. listeners, if you listen, if you missed the beginning of this interview, we have talked about so much. And if you missed the beginning and you'd like to listen to it again. You can download the podcast at orchardpeople. com slash network. That's once we complete the show, I will put it up.
And while you're there, you can sign up for our iTunes podcast feed. So you can catch up on previous episodes and so you don't miss future ones. But, don't go anywhere yet.
[00:41:16] Persimmons: A Unique Fruit to Grow
Because coming up after a few words from our sponsors, we're going to talk about persimmons. It's a fruit that's easy to grow. But does it actually taste good?
We're going to find out by speaking to persimmon growing expert William Preston of Preston's Persimmon Patch in Calvert County, Maryland. You're listening to the Urban Forestry Radio Show on Reality Radio 101. I'm Susan Poizner. And we'll be back after this short break. The perfect dream all fell down.
Hey Sally, your garden is looking great today. Thanks Gary. Your lawn is looking a little bit dry. Ah, that's okay. It's all going to change. Soon I'm going to plant a fruit tree in my yard. I'm thinking an apple tree or maybe peach. That sounds great, but do you know what you're doing? fruit trees are easy.
You just plant them, water them, and wait for the harvest, right? Actually, that's not quite the case. What? Organic orchardists spend a lot of time protecting their fruit trees from pest and disease problems. Really? And in order to thrive, fruit trees need to be pruned every year. I didn't know that.
I'll tell you what, before you buy your tree, why don't you go to orchardpeople. com. You'll learn lots about growing fruit from the blog, and there's a fantastic monthly newsletter we send out. Maybe I should check that out. Yeah, then if you really want to move ahead, you can sign up for OrchardPeople.
com's beginner fruit tree care course. maybe I should hold off on buying my tree today? You got it. The more you know, the better your tree will grow. Sign up for a free membership to OrchardPeople. com today.
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Welcome back to the Urban Forestry Radio Show with your host Susan Poizner. Right here on Reality Radio 1 0 1 to contact Susan Live. Email her right now in studio101@gmail.com, and now right back to your host, Susan Poisoner. I'm Susan Poizner and you're listening to the Urban Forestry Radio Show, a program where we learn about fruit trees, food forests, permaculture, and lots more.
Thanks for tuning in. In the first part of the show, we talked about fire blight and how to fight that nasty disease that hits apple and pear trees. I guess that one of the problems we face when we plant popular trees, like apples or pears, is that there's a good chance others in your community may also be growing those trees.
And, if they're neglecting their trees, not pruning properly and not protecting them from pests and disease, then their trees may get sick, and the infection will come over to your lovely tree. But, what if you grow a type of fruit that few others grow? Maybe, just maybe, your trees will be a bit more protected.
If you want to give it a try, why not plant persimmons? Now, persimmons are a widely misunderstood fruit that can be delicious and nutritious. They are high in minerals like calcium, magnesium, iron, and beta carotene. that's what we're going to talk about next on the show.
[00:46:29] Interview with Persimmon Expert Bill Preston
coming up, my next guest is going to be Bill Preston of Preston's Persimmon Patch in Calvert County, Maryland.
And Bill has been growing persimmons for a very long time. So he's also the author of a book called When Persimmon Was King. Bill, how are you today? I'm fine, how are you? I'm very well. so tell me, how long have you been growing persimmons for? I guess probably, 30, 30 or 40. More years. And why did you start?
Because I was interested in, a whole group of varieties that were being, destroyed in California in an experiment station plot. They sent, samples of fruits. over to, Glendale where I was working and I managed to see and taste a lot of those fruits. They were so fascinating, I followed it up from there.
And had you heard about persimmons before that? I'm a native to the area here and we have native persimmon trees, which are fine. But the, the, Oriental persimmons are so much larger and worth fooling with. Yeah. So you started fooling with them. now what was your background? Did you grow apple trees and pear trees before?
A little bit, yes. huh. I'm a trained horticulturist, yeah. what was the draw? Was it curiosity? And how did it go at first? Did you find it was easy to grow these trees? a friend of mine and I, Eugene Griffith and I, explored several states where Persimmons had been known to be grown, oriental persimmons had been known to be grown.
And, we checked the Blue Ridge Mountains and, Pennsylvania areas, all up and down the coast and found, quite a few individual plants, trees that had been grafted that were oriental persimmons. And that's how we follow them through, yeah. Now, I hate to say this to you, but persimmons don't always have a good name.
Some people say they don't taste very good. That's true, and it is true. The, a lot of the oriental varieties and almost, essentially all of the native persimmons are, What we call astringent. So they'll dry your mouth out when you try to eat them. And people when they experience that effect, they never forget it.
have you managed to change anybody's minds? have you with the work, here you're growing this fruit. do you have anybody to sell it to? Does anybody want to buy it from you? Yes, they'll buy a persimmon that has no astringency. And, I have, come across a number of varieties that have no astringency.
I ran taste panels on them and selected one that I thought was probably the best of the group, and that's the one that I use to establish my orchard. But these trees, have no astringency. And they also, will set fruit without being pollinated. And so you have seedless fruit. And that's what I'm, what I aimed for.
Oh, that's amazing. Now, I know people are going to ask, and I see an email's come in as well. We'll see what that is. But, what are these varieties? Should we be out there looking for those varieties? the variety that I use is Guang Yang. It's not well known. But it was a selection that was brought over from a collection in Korea.
Still, it was a Chinese variety. And, about 60 or 70 other varieties were brought over as, grafting wood. And tested, test grown here in Maryland, on the eastern shore of Maryland. And that's where I ran across quite a few varieties. But there, a lot of them are astringent types. And a lot of them are very seedy if they get pollinated, yes, by a male tree.
Keep in mind that, the trees that produce fruit are female trees. But you said you have a variety that doesn't need pollination. Is that like immaculate conception? How does that work? They just form their fruits without any pollination required. And so it makes it rather easy for me not to worry about the bees that are necessary for a lot of other crops.
I, you, we have to talk about this at some point.
[00:52:23] Challenges and Benefits of Growing Persimmons
Maybe you can teach me how that happens, but, in the meantime, we have a question from Alan in Pittsburgh, who writes, he says, I grow persimmons in Pittsburgh, and over the years, one of the most challenging problems has been kaki sudden death syndrome.
Have you had to deal with this problem? And if so, what have you done to prevent it? What kind of syndrome? K A K I. Kaki's Sudden Death Syndrome. Oh, I see. I've never had that problem. I don't, I haven't run into it. There is one, one situation that he may have run into and called it Kaki's Sudden Death, but, there is, a possibility that there might be incompatibility between the Native, Diasporas virginiana as an understock and the Diasporas kaki, the oriental, scion.
And so that could happen and it might happen right away or it might happen much later, after the trees have been established for a while, and I'm dealing with that, yes. Okay, so there are, I have this, idea that because you're growing persimmons you don't have to face the serious problems like rust and fire blight and, other problems that other orchardists face, but it sounds like persimmons do have their challenges.
They do have their challenges. The, European wasp comes in about the time the fruits are beginning to ripen. It's an extra large wasp and it'll cut the, ripe fruit open and start feeding on the sweet, tissue inside. And, that can be quite a problem if you have quite a few of those bees around.
And other than that, now you told me, and I don't, hopefully it wasn't in secret, you said you're 87 years old. That's true. That's wonderful. how is it to care for your trees? Is there a lot of work involved? There is quite a bit of work. I have to, keep the, growth of, grass and vines and so forth that grow under the trees, I have to keep them mowed so that, the trees are not, filled with all sorts of vines and underbrush.
But I, I do that. That's a pretty hard job, but it has to be done. And, for pruning, the trees self prune themselves. And I have to remove, the dead branches that eventually show up. They're usually twigs or, sometimes a little larger. But they, come off fairly easily and that gets them out of the way anyway.
Wow. Now, what's it like for you? Because I understand you sell your persimmons at the farmer's market. What kind of persimmons, and where else? And also I sell both retail at the market, and also I sell wholesale. Oh. Or other vendors who like to offer them to their customers. to their clients. So what is the response of clients who walk by?
do they, when you're at the farmer's market, for instance, do they, are they curious? Do they already know this fruit? Some do. But a lot of them don't. So what I do is offer, slices of a ripe but firm fruit, on a plate, and let people try them. And you get one or two folks beginning to try them, and you get two or three more people becoming curious about what's happened.
And you end up with a whole crowd of people wanting all those samples. You can hardly supply the samples fast enough. Wow. And then when they buy them, they like, or when they taste them, they like them and they want to buy. anywhere from five to ten fruits or something like that. what would you recommend that, that people, try?
I know a lot of people like planting native trees. Is it worthwhile planting native persimmons? Or are they just too seedy and astringent for most of us to enjoy? They, will definitely be astringent. I like the, fruits. But you do have to wait until they're, wrinkled. And soft because, otherwise, they're too astringent to, even eat.
But the flavor is good once they're, once they have no astringency. And incidentally, you can remove the astringency by placing fully ripe native or, astringent, kaki fruits and put them in a plastic bag, close them up tight, but Before you do that, put in an apple or two and the carbon dioxide and the, the, ethylene from the apples will ripen the fruits and remove the astringency in them.
That sounds good. That's good advice. Bill, I want to thank you. This conversation was far too short. And, I think that one day I need to do a whole show on persimmons because I see there's been a lot of interesting research. and I know you worked on a research study on persimmons, while back. And also, of course, there's your book.
What, is your book about? My book is about, the, Travels of, Palamon Dorset, who went to China in the 19, 1926, 27, 28, 29, and, explored the persimmon growing areas around Beijing at that time. And, I have a lot of his photographs. I was given a lot of his photographs. When his, office was cleared out at Beltsville, and I, put the material in order, figured out who had taken the pictures and so forth, and then, worked with the, National Agricultural Library to work out.
details and I was able to put in a whole story, mainly it's a picture book, but it's a whole story of the activities from planting and grafting. And, marketing and so forth that the Chinese did and was a lot of work for them, but they were up to it and they did it because they love that fruit.
Wow. Bill, the show is almost over, but I am so grateful to have you with us today on the show. So thanks so much for coming. Thank you very much for being interested. It's not just me, we're all very interested. Okay, goodbye for now. Bye bye.
[01:00:31] Conclusion and Upcoming Topics
that's all for the show today. It was so nice to speak to my special guest, Dr.
Kerry Peter, Assistant Professor of Fruit Tree Pathology at Penn State Fruit Research and Extension Center, and Bill Preston of Preston's Persimmon Patch in Calvert County, Maryland. If you missed part of the show, or if you'd like to listen again, you can listen online. Or download the podcast from iTunes.
All you have to do is go to orchardpeople. com slash network to access this or previous episodes covering all aspects of fruit trees, food, forests, and permaculture gardens. Now, while you're on the site. Don't forget to sign up for my monthly newsletter at OrchardPeople. com. I'll remind you about upcoming podcasts and radio shows, and you'll get access to lots of free content, including articles, interviews, eBooks, resource lists, and more.
Tune into the show again next month and we will have more great guests. You're listening to the Urban Forestry Radio Show. I'm Susan Poizner from the Fruit Tree Care training website, OrchardPeople. com. And I look forward to seeing you again next month.
If you want to learn more about the Community Orchard Network, I've created a page on my website where you can find out lots more information and learn how to sign up for our newsletter. Just visit www. orchardpeople. com slash network and you can read our frequently asked questions and check out the free webinars and podcasts that we've recorded.
Tune in next month and you'll meet some more great guests and you'll learn more about fruit trees, permaculture, and forest gardens. Our show goes out on the last Tuesday of every month at 1 p. m. Eastern Time. I'm Susan Poizner. Thanks for tuning in and I'll see you next time.
Thank you for listening to the Urban Forestry Radio Show with your host, Susan Poizner, right here on Reality Radio 101.