Orchard People

Introduction to Apple Trees
Apple trees are amazing, but they can take up a lot of space in your garden.
If you have a small yard and you plant an apple tree, a full size apple tree will shade your whole yard.
You won't have room for any other plants that love the sun.
Now there are options, though.
Exploring Dwarfing and Columnar Apple Trees
If you have a small yard, you could plant a dwarfing apple tree.
And these are little trees that don't grow very tall at all.
They do sprawl though. They can have branches that go out quite far from side to side.
But there's another option and that's columnar apple trees.
And these are really I find them amusing, funny trees
that can be tall but they're very skinny.
Sometimes they look a little bit like an upside down broom
and
sometimes they look like a stick with apples on it.
So, I always wondered about these trees, and that's why we're going to do this show about columnar apple trees.
How were they developed? What's the purpose of these trees? Do they produce fruit that actually tastes quite good? We're going to find out all about that in the show today, and I have three guests in the show today.
Meet the Experts: Cornell University Researchers and Horticulturalist from Plants Nouveau
So, my first two guests are from Cornell University in Geneva, New York. I've got Kenong Xu, who's Associate Professor of the Tree Fruit Genomics at Cornell University, and also his research associate, Laura Doherty.
And she also works at Cornell. with Kenong. Later in the show, I'm also going to talk to Angela Palmer.
She is founder and co owner of Plants Nouveau in Alabama, and she markets, those trees, a number of columnar trees.
She's also an expert in horticulture. So she can talk to us a little bit about how do you prune these trees?
How do you take care of them? So we've got a lot to talk about in the show today. But first I would love to hear from you. If you're listening to the show live right now, you can send in your questions or comments. Send those questions to info at, orchardpeople. com. That's info, I N F O at orchardpeople.
com. And remember to include your first name and where you are writing from. And if you're watching us on YouTube, we got a chat box there. So first of all, put in the chat box where you're listening from. Remember to like and subscribe at the same time. And of course you can submit your questions in the chat.
I really look forward to hearing from you. So Kenong, Laura, welcome to the show today. Hey, Susan. Thanks for having us. I'm so pleased to have you both. So actually, Laura, since you jumped right in there, I would love to start with you because
I visited you in your test orchard where you are researching these columnar apple trees.
History of Columnar Apple Trees
What's the history of these, tall skinny trees?
Yeah, so the original columnar apple tree
is actually called a Wijcik Macintosh apple tree. And this tree was discovered, in British Columbia in 1963. so the Wijcik columnar growth habit is a kind of spontaneous mutation that occurred on a normal Macintosh tree.
So the story goes, there was This guy, his name was Anthony Wejick because he named it after himself, was walking his orchard. He's got 50 year old, Macintosh trees, and then all of a sudden on one of the trees he sees a branch that's really upright, straight, compact, and he said, that's, really interesting.
So from there he took cuttings and propagated that branch, and that became the, Wejick Macintosh tree.
So, okay, so he named it after himself. He found this kind of upright tree. can you, I know you grow some of the Wijcik trees there. Can you describe it to me, like, when I've seen pictures of columnar trees, it looks to me like it's a stick with little side, tiny side shoots coming out of the side.
But then there are others that I've seen, Where all the side branches come from low down and go straight up. So can you describe to me what the Wijcik looks like? That original columnar apple tree?
Yeah. So the original Wijcik is, more of an upright when it's first grown. it will have one central leader growing up.
It tends to have a very thicker stem. It's more sturdy than, a normal apple tree would be at this point. one or two years old. It's very sturdy. it has spur type fruit coming off of it, so you can see fruit coming from near the main branch. And the main thing about these, the Wijcik, is that it has limited branching.
So you're not going to get a ton of branches coming up, but if they do come out, they tend to go upright too, so they don't spread out, horizontally at all.
So I'm fascinated by the whole idea of how the, fruit forms on these trees, because apple tree spurs don't live forever. They live maybe five, six years.
So this tree, will it have spurs, little fruit, tiny little fruiting branches on the trunk of the tree, on the main stem? stem. And will those spurs last forever or will they die and new spurs will pop up?
they'll come off the main trunk and they'll come off some of the lateral branches if branches occur.
the ones we've had for about eight, nine years and we still see fruit coming off of them as they're still growing. so I can't say for sure if they'll If they would die and, but they are constantly forming new spurs. You get a lot of fruit off these trees.
You get a lot of fruit off these trees.
And that's what people listening to this show are going to want to hear that if we're planting a columnar tree, we want the fruit.
Audience Interaction and Questions
we've got an email here from Brett who says hello to Susan Poizner from Buffalo, New York. Interesting. Yes, I do find columnar trees very interesting. Thank you. and let's see, we've got some people, hello, Ryan on YouTube says hello from Jacksonville, Florida.
so Kaleem is from Kashmir, India. Ryan, is asking what time is it in India anyways, that you've tuned in. Linda's from Ontario. And Two Angels Figs is from Chattanooga, Tennessee. So that is, it's so nice to have everybody here with us today. Okay, so, Laura, you've got this original columnar apple tree, the Wejik.
Why Columnar Apple Trees are Unique
Why is it interesting for you guys to study it?
I think it's mostly interesting because if you think of a normal apple tree that, we would draw in elementary school, you get a big thick trunk and you get like a ton of branches coming out very wide, very big canopy. And these columnar trees are just so strikingly different when you look at them.
They're very, compact. They don't take a lot of space. I think they're very cute. if, an apple tree is cute, they're very cute looking and they're just, they're really nice for smaller spaces and they're really nice for me to study personally because
I don't have to get on a ladder or I don't have to worry about the, being in a sea of trees that I can't see around.
So I like them a lot.
And yet saying that, having visited you in that test orchard, they get tall, some of them.
Yes, they can get tall.
the ones that you saw, some of those were on their own roots. So they were just seedlings growing. So they potentially could grow as tall as they're genetically able to.
They have unlimited potential. We're not trying to limit them in any way. They grow how they grow. but most apples that you'll see in orchards are on rootstocks, which kind of control the height and the vigor of them more. And they can be at a more manageable height overall.
Columnar Apple Tree Rootstocks
And that brings up another really good question.
And that is rootstock. So here we found a certain, type of tree that grows in this tall, skinny form, which is great. But when you propagate that tree, you're going to be grafting it onto a rootstock. As soon as you put it on, whether it's a dwarfing rootstock or semi dwarfing, doesn't that just change everything?
it, doesn't. The, form will remain the same. it can limit the potential height. Overall, depending if you put it on a dwarf, a dwarfing or semi dwarfing rootstock. But overall, the shape that you know about columnar and the traits that come with columnar, those don't change at all.
Okay, well, so that's good to know.
Can Columnar Trees be Tip Bearing
we've got a question from Ryan who says, how do you get tip bearing apple cultivars to behave in the columnar training?
I don't know about that. Yeah, tip bearing is a trait that We have looked into in the past, it's a kind of a different genetic trait to be a tip bearing versus spur bearing. but as far as I know, a lot of the, most of the columnars are only, spur bearing types.
and it would make sense because I think even tip bearing are not so popular for modern fruits, just because it does limit you because the fruits are only, growing on year old wood, whereas if you've got a fruit tree, an apple tree where you can have spurs growing everywhere, even on the trunk, 10 year old wood or whatever, it certainly will allow you to have a bigger harvest.
I'm guessing that's probably why it's not top priority to study tip bearing. Is that the point?
I'm not sure if it's the point. I think, some way the research is going as people are looking to automate things and do mechanical based pruning and harvesting and with tip bearing, you You can't predict where all the fruit are going to be where, when it's spur bearing, it's easier to know where the fruit should be located.
That makes a lot of sense. we have an email from Sherry. hi, I'm in Florida, growing zone 10b. Is this a good climate to grow this tree? I guess that's the Wijcik. Or is it too hot and humid? And I wonder if there are columnar trees that would be suitable for Florida, maybe we will talk about that, afterwards, in the second part of the show, but what do you think is, it appropriate for a zone 10b garden?
I'm not super familiar with what can grow down in Florida, you'd probably depending where what nursery you're buying from, they'll have the hardiness zones. because I know apples do need, they do need cold and they do need chilling to go into dormancy in the winter. So, Florida might not be the best, but I guess it depends where in Florida.
Yeah, exactly, I think so. I would love to chat with Kenong. Kenong, why don't you say hello? who, Kenong, who you work with. There we go. He's almost here with us. Let's give him a second. And, oh, there you are. Hi. Oh, let's make sure your microphone is on. Oh, I can't hear you, Kinong.
Is it good now?
Yes, I hear you perfectly.
All
All right.
Welcome. So glad you're here.
Genetic Research and Breeding Columnar Apple Trees for Small Gardens
So Kenong, you guys work really hard,
you're working with Laura as a genetic researcher. What is the goal of your work in studying these trees? These columnar trees or other trees.
Our goal is to really try to, identify the genes.
And gene networks that control, trace, that are very important in the economic and see in the agronomy.
Columnar trees, is that like an economically important factor or is that just a quirky thing? How can it be useful economically?
The columnar traits is, economically important.
It's basically, we're talking about the phenotype, the growth habit itself. So there's a lot of genetics about it. And also there are a lot of plant biology about it. So we want to understand the actual biology underneath the phenotype.
Yeah. So if you understand, the, science behind these trees, how would that be helpful?
Is that for, instance, conventional breeders, will they use this information? Is it for, genetic tracking? At gene editing or genetic engineering, what, how is this useful in terms of the economics of growing fruit?
We studied columnar, that's just one part of our work.
We also study other traits that are important for fruit quality, such as the fruit acid level. Thank you. such as food color and food storability. So those are things we also study. Okay. So certainly they are very important in, economics. Okay. So as to how our findings that can help plant breeders,
So we can develop, DNA markers that can be easily used by growers, can use this, by breeders can, use a marker to screen, their seedling populations before they plant it in the orchard. in the case of a columnar, we can use the markers that are related to the gene itself, to screen the population, if they are focused on a column, they can take out, nearly one half of the population by using the marker.
So it's really a save time and save their resources.
Basically what it means is for a breeder, let's say they're looking for a characteristic and they want columnar apple trees and they start seedlings because they want to find one that makes a lovely tasting fruit. So they take seeds from apple trees, maybe from columnar apple trees or whatever.
They'll start the little plants.
And then by checking the genetics, they can throw out the ones that don't have the traits that they want.
Take these little poor little seedlings, sorry guys, if you don't have the trait we want, you go into the compost pile. And so now you've got 50 percent of what's left of these seedlings, and you know they're all gonna have that trait, because you guys found out what the trait is.
Right,
You found the secret code. You cracked the code. So I think that's incredible because I know that breeding apple trees takes like 20 years to go from starting a seed to go to market. So that would shorten that journey a little. We've got a few questions here.
How long before a Wijcik columnar apple tree bears fruit?
Jim writes, Hi, orchard people. How long to bear fruit from initial planting?
How many years? So let's, start with the Wijcik, that very first, columnar apple tree. How long does that take to produce fruit?
columnar apple trees, they're all now being, grafted on the rootstock, like a dwarf rootstock, M9, or semi dwarf rootstock. I'm 26. So based on our experience.
we can see, the fruit in the third year after you successfully grafted the fungus. Third year.
Okay, depending on the rootstock, it'll be year three you get the fruit.
What do the apples from a Wijcik apple tree taste like?
Dave sent an email. I don't know where Dave is from. Hi to Susan, listening in again. What does this fruit taste like? So the Wijcik apple, that very first apple tree.
Laura, do you want to chime in on that one? I don't know.
Yeah, so the Wijcik, Macintosh tastes pretty much identical to a normal Macintosh that you could buy in a grocery store. So the only difference is how the tree grows, but the fruit is still actually pretty much the same fruit.
Exactly the same, pretty much exactly the same fruit.
Is it genetically identical or just it happens to have the, if you were to take Chess the genes on, Macintosh Apple and Wijcik Apple. Are they absolutely clones of each other kind of thing?
pretty much, yeah. They're, the only difference is the difference in the genes that make it grow columnar instead of a standard normal apple tree.
So if I gave you a Macintosh fruit and a Wijcik fruit side by side and said, tell me which one is which, I don't think you could tell the difference. Wow.
Do Columnar Apple Trees need Cross Pollination?
Okay. All right. Kinong, back to you. We've got a question from Ray. Ray asks, do these trees need cross pollination? Yes or
no. Okay. It depends on the conditions. So if you plant the trees with other apples, probably you do not need. The bees will help you. do the job. But if you plan the tree, insulated, there's no other trees about to run it. You may have to
yeah, you won't have fruit right if you are in an urban garden you got a small garden and none of your neighbors have apple trees, we check is not the way to go I'm guessing
the one good things about apple pollens like this, okay, you can, you know how is the pollen, and it's me in previous years.
They start them in the freezer. They can be viable for years. If you score them. And I'm freezing conditions. So, yeah, that's so you would have
to take pollen from another tree,
right
in your freezer and then use a paintbrush and pollinate the flowers every spring.
Yeah, basically, do the pollen, but you collect it.
The first thing you need to dry them. Okay, before you put it to the freezer. So you dry them, you get the pollen collect the pollen, then, you can store them in freezer, then you can use it for years. Okay.
I would love to know if any of the listeners have ever done this or if they intend to do this. I need you to email me and tell me, because I think that would be fascinating.
okay. Back into YouTube. Laura says hello from Stratford. Interesting subject. Eric says, Eric Lee from Toronto, Canada. Joining late while we're glad you guys are here.
Challenges and Benefits of Columnar Apple Trees
All right, so now we've been talking about the Wijcik, the first one, but Laura, I've known, you showed me around the orchard, they're not just Wijcik there.
What else do you have growing in your test orchard?
So in our orchard, one of our main project was looking at the tree architecture. So to study that we planted a bunch of trees of different growth habits. So we have,
Macintosh and Golden Delicious, which are standard growth habits, like a normal tree you would think of.
And then we have Wijcik, which is that columnar upright.
And then we have, two kinds of weeping apple trees, which are more crab and Crabapple ornamental trees, and those are called red jade and chill sweeping. So that block is primarily used for what we were doing with the architecture project, but down the orchard, we develop a lot of open pollinated populations.
So if we took a Wijcik fruit, Cut all the seeds out and germinated at them. Those would be considered a Wejik open pollinated population. And then we can study those to see if certain traits can be passed on, or if we can use, those kinds of populations that are segregating to identify new genes for corresponding traits.
So.
So. So for the Wijcik babies, the ones that are columnar, they're, you took seeds from a Wijcik apples and you planted them. They must, they, there is some diversity. They look, they're all upright, but they look different, right? Yes, definitely. How different?
it varies. So we, naturally, I was just walking the orchard a few days ago and we've got some that look very much like a Wijcik, very traditional, what you would think of as a columnar tree.
And then we have some that are, we call them columnar like because they're very narrow and compact and they grow upright and they don't take up a lot of space, but they're, they've got way more branches or. Different kinds of fruit on them. So we, we can, because these are open pollinated Wijciks. We know Wijcik is a mother parent, but we don't know who the pollen is.
So we can get crab apples coming in to pollinate. We can get other, domestic eating apples coming in. So some of our trees are, crab apple looking, very ornamental looking. Some you could eat the fruit and say this tastes good. so it's a mix. And then I think one of my favorite trees is we have one columnar tree that actually has red leaves instead of green leaves.
And I think it's very pretty.
And how is the fruit on that one?
That one has crab apple fruit, so very small. I wouldn't eat those fruit, but it would be pretty to just look at the tree.
And yet, there are going to be breeders who are coming to Geneva to check your collection to see what you have, and they may decide that a red leafed, apple tree would be a fabulous thing for, an ornamental in somebody's backyard garden.
Variations in the Columnar Shape
So that's the beauty, I think, of what you do. Kenong, I'll come to you. In all the time that you've worked with these trees, have you had any particularly surprising discoveries or anything that you think, would, pique the interest of listeners in terms of what you found?
Okay. Yes. we do have that type of, situation.
basically it's like this, when. We, can actually genotype all of the seedlings we have that are coming from, Weijic, for example, there are certain trees, they are, supposed to be Weijic, for example, there are certain trees, they are, supposed to be columnar based on the gene, the unit.
Okay, so you have the gene, but the tree grew like a, just like a, regular tree.
So that, does that mean you got the wrong gene? Because if the tree's got the gene and it's not columnar.
No. The genes correct. Everything's all right. So what happened to that was that we, when we check the expression levels of that gene in those trees.
that are genetically similar, but grew like a regular standard. So the gene that's supposed to be expressed actually is not expressed there. So what do we, Laura did a lot of work, we did a lot of work together. What we find is there are certain genes we call them, the ular suppressor. they are, we call those genes basically is recessively, their effect is not like dominant.
It's recessive, so you don't see them very often. But when the condition allowed the word express, when we get expressed, the phenotype goes suppressed. That's why we see, what, we see at the time.
That's very interesting. And, could it be like humans, like you can have the gene for some sort of disease, but it just doesn't get activated, or then something happens and it activates that disease or that problem.
So, okay, so sometimes it's suppressed. Interesting. Okay, a couple more questions. I'm going to go to email here. Irene writes, Hello to the Tree Show from Omaha, Nebraska. Susan, any contests? No contests today. No, I'm sorry, Irene. I used to do contests on the show. So sorry, today, no contest. Let's see. Now,
What does Columnar Growing Habit Mean and What do Columnar Apple Trees Look Like?
Sue writes, Hello, tree folks.
What is meant By columnar growing habit, Laura, do you want to go for that one? Columnar growing habit? What does that mean?
Sure. So columnar is just how we describe it. But what it means is essentially the tree grows very upright. it has very compact inner nodes. and reduce branching. So think of a tree that's like tall and you just shrunk it down a little bit so that everything is closer and it's, if you look one up on the internet and you say I'm looking for a columnar apple tree, you'll really be able to tell the difference.
They're just shorter, compact, More narrow.
And, the side branches, it looks to me like they, they're very close together and they all start from a certain point on the tree, but they're all going upwards. In other words, in a normal tree, you'll have side branching in various heights on the tree.
When I saw some of your trees, it's like a broom sometimes that a lot of these side branches start in the same place. Am I right? Yeah.
Yeah. In our open pollinated population, we definitely see that kind of where you have your main shoot coming up and then you have five or six branches. It's essentially coming up from the same spot and they're all the same height.
So you do get that broom look to it.
That broom look, which I find very interesting. Linda writes, Susan, in regard to genes, what does heritable mean? Thank you. Heritable as in inherit able. What do you think, Laura or Kinong?
maybe I'll take on it. this is just like in humans, or maybe, or any other organisms.
The genes can be passed on through the germ line. So in the case of apple trees, they can pass on through pollen. They can also pass on through the egg cells in the flowers. So they are all universally true for all organisms.
Okay, so it means that somehow it's getting into, these traits are getting into the DNA, Of the plant. Yeah. Okay. And another quick question. We're going to go for a commercial break in just a minute, but this is from Kirsten from Frederick, MD, Maryland. I should really memorize my states here.
Do Columnar Apple Trees Produce as Much Fruit as Conventional Apple Trees?
Kirsten says, do columnar trees produce more apples per tree during a growing season than a standard Mac?
no, compared to standard, Macintosh columnar, apple trees are smaller. so they also, less number of fruit.
Less fruit. So it's more for a small garden, small family. You don't want too much. You don't want this tree to shade out your garden. And because it's so upright, it won't shade out your garden.
Do Columnar Apple Trees Get Canker More Frequently than Conventional Apple Trees?
one last question I'll ask before the commercial break is I had a listener write me, Myrn from the Netherlands, and she grows a couple of columnar trees, but she feels like, is it possible they get more canker? So disease and could that be the case? Have you seen a lot of canker in your trees? And is that because the air circulation with all these clusters of branches so close together is poor, it's not easy to increase air circulation.
Is that the case?
not, not as I know, canker, canker is not, a serious problem for, clonal apple trees. What are the problems, actually the same thing like most apple trees, the common apple diseases such as, fire blight and then apple scab on the fruit and also on the tissues.
So, canker. Probably not a problem.
Not so much. Not like cherry trees that have terrible canker problems. Wow. Okay. Great information. let us go now. We've, I'd love to have a few words from our sponsors. So are you guys okay waiting on the line for a couple of minutes? in, after the commercials, we're also going to have our third guest.
That's Angela Palmer, founder and co owner of Plants Nouveau in Alabama. She's going to talk about marketing these trees and caring for them. So are you guys okay staying on the line for the second part of the show?
Yes.
Okay. Super. Thanks everybody. You are listening to Orchard People, a radio show and podcast brought to you by the fruit tree care training website, orchardpeople.
com. This is Reality Radio 101 and I'm Susan Poizner, author of the fruit tree care books, Growing Urban Orchards and Grow Fruit Trees Fast and Fruit Tree Grafting for Everyone, my new book. We're going to be back just after the break. So I'll see you guys in just a minute.
Commercial Break
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Show Resumption and Guest Introduction
You're listening to orchard people, a radio show and podcast brought to you by the fruit tree care training website, orchard, people.
com. This is reality radio one Oh one. And I'm your host. Susan Poizner.
In the show today, we've been talking about columnar apple trees, those tall, skinny apple trees that are great for small gardens. And my guests in the first part of the show were Kenong Hsu, associate professor of fruit tree genomics at Cornell university and his research associate, Laura Daugherty.
Now, coming up in just a second, I'm going to chat with horticulturalist and plant marketer, Angela Palmer. She's the founder and co owner of Plants Nouveau in Alabama. So we're going to talk about how to care for and maintain columnar apple trees.
Do Columnar Apple Trees Need Pruning and Special Care?
So Angela, thanks for coming on the show today. Oh, you're welcome. Thanks for having
me. Thanks for doing a show about columnar apple trees.
Yeah, it's something that was a mystery for years.
I had seen stuff on them and heard about them. And I always wondered, like, how do you care for these trees? For me, top of mind is a lot of what I do in order to protect my fruit trees from pest and disease problems and to increase their productivity is I prune them. So, I use pruning as a tool because we grow our fruit trees in a public park, we can't do much spraying and just by having a nice, beautiful, open air circulation in the canopy, I can keep the trees healthier and yet these columnar apple trees are so handy for a small garden But do they have special needs in terms of care?
Well, they don't need pruning. They really don't need pruning. they will fruit a little bit on the first year wood, but it's mostly on the second year wood. So these are only going to grow five to six feet wide max. So if you're looking to make a tight hedge or a special espalier or something, you might be pruning them a little bit more than if you were just planting one in your backyard.
But honestly, you're going to be taking off that first year would only just to shape them if you want to. So, wow. Kind of the beauty of these plants.
So tell me how you encountered, how you first started to, explore columnar apple trees.
I started Plants Nouveau 20 years ago. It's amazing. But, and I actually live in Massachusetts, so my business partner lives in Alabama and she can't grow the apple trees, sadly, but I have them all in my backyard and just had one yesterday as a snack.
Still in the crisper, so I have plenty harvested to last me for a few more weeks. So, I saw them at a trade show.
Marketing and Cultivars of Columnar Apple Trees
They were actually marketed in the early to mid, maybe mid 2000s as the Urban Apples. I don't know if you remember those, but there were four original varieties. We still have those varieties today.
And it was when we thought everybody was going to move to the city and have an apartment and not be able to have a garden. And it was the perfect name. And I thought that is beautiful. Brilliant marketing, urban apples, couldn't have thought of a better name myself. And I'd had my eye on him for a long time.
And the company that introduced them just didn't have a good run of it. And I think things changed and people actually didn't all move into the city and they stayed in their properties, perhaps maybe smaller, but urban was a very telling word. And maybe. And because everyone wasn't moving into the city, people just didn't get it.
So that's why we changed the name to fruit snacks. And
I've just been fascinated by these plants from the first time I saw them. I thought they were so beautiful and they just had really wonderful apples on them that taste really good. And a lot of times there's some dwarf blueberries and raspberries and other things on the market that don't taste good.
these actually really taste good.
So what are the cultivars that you are marketing, and yeah, how's it going with it? It's
going well. Obviously, it's a budded plant, so you can't ramp up production as quickly as you would like to because it does, it's traditional horticulture and it takes a while.
so we're, we could sell a million of these right now if we had them. And unfortunately we don't have a million yet, but we're working on it. But there's a big demand.
We have the four original varieties were Tasty Red, Golden Treat, Tangy Green, and Blushing Delight. We're actually going to replace Blushing Delight because it grows a little bit wider than we would like it to grow.
It's still small for an apple tree, but so we're replacing that with something that's going to be called Sweet Treat. And, it's a really fun apple that's in that blushing category for apples.
And then we have one with red flesh that's going to be called All Red, and that will be coming out.
It's just going to the growers this year, so it will be 2026 before you'll see it.
For consumers, it might be a little bit mail order and maybe in the chain stores in small quantities this year, but much bigger availability next year. And that one's fun.
Now, when I look at some of the pictures on the Plants Nouveau website, some of them make it look like these trees are one stick with little, spurs growing off of it.
Is, that what they look like?
Those are younger plants, and if you're trying to make a screen, Of them, you could keep them that way, but the plants, the breeder that we actually, the company that we work with, it works with the breeder is actually in Oregon. The breeders are in the Czech Republic. So the Oregon company that we work with that has been selecting and trialing these things is.
They have plants that are 10 years old, and so some of them, they're about this wide, and they'll have some branches like you spoke of with the more broom like appearance, but some of them are a little bit, more like a coat rack, so it's a branch here, and then a branch here, and then a branch here, and so I think they're just the coolest things, they really are.
The shape. I heard Laura say they're cute. They really are cute. They're cute. And the whole idea behind the branding was, go out in your backyard after you come home from school and grab yourself a fruit snack. And don't eat a bag of, poison gummies. And don't eat. Don't eat goldfish or whatever, go outside and get yourself a fruit snack after school.
And that was our marketing, hope was that people would use these as snacks and just go out and pick it off the tree when they're, ready to go and eat it right there. You don't need a ladder. You don't need anything to get to them. You can reach them and you can just, walk right outside and grab an apple.
It's so funny you mentioned that because when I dreamed up planting a community orchard in my local park, that was what I had in my mind. Kids would walk through the park, they would grab an apple on the way home, and indeed, that is what happens in our local park. The only problem is people grab the apples before they're ripe.
They don't have the education to know.
That's my biggest struggle, having been a horticulturist for 30 years, but having not grown apples, I'm constantly looking at them thinking, well, if I only have 20 apples, I don't want to waste one tasting it. So how do I know that? I think I waited too long this year.
So I'm learning. I'm learning. I work with the guys. that we work with in Oregon are apple experts. They live and breathe fruit all day. And so they're a wealth of knowledge, but.
Fantastic. You make me feel so much better because, I don't just have to educate the public. Like it's, if a horticulturalist with 20 years of experience doesn't know when to harvest, don't blame the public for harvesting early.
It's really hard. I know when Tasty Red is green, it's not ready, but that one's a little bit easier.
So, yes, a little clearer. And that goes back to you talked about that all red variety with Two Angels writes in YouTube, what is the flavor profile on that red fleshed apple?
So it's a, it's, I like some of the ones, so Sweet Treat and All Red are hand apples.
I like, they're perfect for little kids. They're the perfect size to put in your lunchbox. some of them are really big and I can't even finish them all. I'll eat Two thirds of it and put it in a plastic bag and, go back to it a couple hours later. These are the perfect size apples.
And when all red is ripe and perfect for picking, it has almost a sweet cherry flavor to it. And so it's really nice. And the other great thing about it is it doesn't Brown. So if you were to slice it and put it in a kid's lunchbox, it wouldn't turn Brown and you wouldn't need any lemon juice for it. I actually sliced one and left it out on my countertop for two days.
Thanks. And it still hadn't turned brown. So I think that's fascinating as well.
That's fantastic. So, you said that they were originally developed in the Czech Republic. Did they have in their minds to do something for urban gardens or was it for some other purpose they were developing these trees?
So they work with, it's I E B in English, but U E B in, in Czech, because University is U S T O V, and in English, it's Institute.
So, So all the cultivars or apples have U E B in them. You'll see that on their patent applications. And they actually are commercial fruit tree Breeders and just happened upon these and kept them thinking. Oh, there's something we can do with these and Evaluated them made sure I think one of the things they were really worried about was what the fruit would taste like and since they had these have orchard almost heirloom quality flavors and keeping property.
So they last for a long time. Once, like I said, I still have them. I harvested them almost a month ago and they're still in my refrigerator and I'm still eating them. So they last for a long time. They can be kept and those were qualities they were looking for in the commercial varieties, but they unfortunately just won't make enough fruit to be commercial.
So that's why they were perfect for backyard gardeners.
Can Columnar Apple Trees be Used for Espalier Plantings?
So I had a few questions on Facebook that are relevant to what you're saying. Matthew wrote in to say, I'm planning a diagonal cordon for this coming spring. I look forward to listening to the podcast. But it sounds to me that even though in our imagination, it's a stick with fruit on it, for a diagonal cordon, would it be helpful or not to have a tree that does have a lot of side shoots in a broom shape form?
Is it just not appropriate? I'm
No, I think you could do espaliers with
these. I definitely do. You could. Okay. Maybe it would be more fan shaped rather than diagonal cord and something like that.
I think tangy green is one that it grows more like a coat rack to me. So that one might be a little bit more difficult, but definitely tasty red.
those, would you, The spurs that you were talking about, they will grow into a little branch. So if you started at that point, training them, I do think it would work. I haven't tried it yet, but one of our growers is actually going to espalier some for shipping to garden centers. So we're excited to see how those work out.
Excellent. So we've got some emails here. Tom says, Thanks. Sounds so delicious. Thanks for sharing. Thank you, Tom. We've got, I'm not sure what your name is here. S. Nate, maybe? Says, Hello. Did Laura write the song, I'm a Tree? The author is Laura Doherty. Laura, are you there? Did you write that song? I did not write that song.
Okay, well, we'll, devote it to you anyways. How's that sound? That sounds great. Okay, good. That's good. and now let's see, there was another question here that's interesting. This is a good question.
Columnar Apple Tree Rootstocks and Growing Conditions
Why would anyone columnar apple on M9 roots? your guest just mentioned doing that, and that, that's from Elaine in New Brunswick, Canada.
Plus, we had some other questions here about rootstocks. Myrn from the Netherlands wrote that she has some columnar trees on M26, MM111. So tell me about what rootstocks are popular for these trees.
We have, done M111, M106, some of the growers use Dolgo, I think that's how you pronounce it, D O L G O, P119 is the one we like the best because these are so good.
Dwarf that when they use the dwarfing rootstock, they don't grow big enough quickly enough for the growers. So what we're selling is what the growers are selling is a two year bottom one year top. And that plant can be four to five feet tall in a five gallon pot. So they grow quickly enough, but they don't ever grow out of it.
So the, B119 allows them to stay columnar and dwarf, but. It also allows them to grow fast enough so that the nursery men who are selling the bare root plants or the potted plants can make enough money. And it doesn't, it's not a three year process. So does that make sense? It's also, it makes sense. So basically, yeah, so the M the B one 19 is more precocious.
So it makes them flower more. It is a very hardy root stock and it's very disease resistant. So it also, the growers like it because it has red leaves. So if it should happen to. outgrow the graft, they can see it right away and they can cut it off. So that's also a good thing.
Columnar Apple Trees and Chill Hours for Cold and Warm Climates
We, I had on Facebook a message from Yael in Alaska.
So in Alaska, she's growing two trees, not from your fruit snacks line. She grows, two golden sentinels, columnar apple trees. She says they're great. Pruning and thinning are a must. and we have a list for those trees now she's in a cold climate and the golden sentinels do well, but earlier we had an email from Florida zone 10 be, do the trees that you market can they survive in a warm climate?
No, they well they might survive but I don't know if they'll make apples, because they need 500 chill hours so if you count up your chill hours you should be able to look online and figure out what that is. But we are. Working with another program, we have a new program that we're just starting to work on that is a low chill fruit program.
And so there is hope for that. And we definitely have peaches coming in this columnar program as well, which would do a lot better in Georgia and possibly northern Florida. Most of these are 500 or more chill hours.
500 or more chill hours. And do they, what are the zones that they're recommended for?
We recommend them to 5A to 8.
So that's like Charlotte, North Carolina kind of area would be the furthest south that we have grown these. We're also working on trying to see how we can push the limit of how hardy they will be in a pot. So I have some outside and my, I'm 6A. And I'm going to see, I've been mulching them and watering them, and they're in a big sort of horse feeding trough.
So we're really looking to see if people could grow these on balconies. So we're doing some trials in that regard. And we have some at nurseries in Zone 7 that are doing the same, and they're going to keep them outside in pots. So we're hoping we'll have knowledge to eventually tell certain areas that they can keep them outside in a big pot.
And not have to plant them, and that would be interesting as well.
That's very interesting.
Growing Columnar Apple Trees in Pots
I'd love Kenong and Laura to come on and talk to us about that, this whole idea about growing an apple tree for a pot. Has there any characteristics that you guys have found in your research that would make a tree more resilient for that kind of purpose?
Laura, I see you on there. What are your thoughts? Oop, I can't hear you though. Oh, okay.
can you hear me now?
I can hear you, yeah. Perfect.
we don't, we've grown a few trees in pots and kept them, in our cold frame for a few years. We did actually grow some Wijciks, and if the pot was big enough, they seemed okay.
I think, Canoe could probably talk a little more about the, it's like a delicate balance of nutrients and fertilizers to keep the plants happy in pots.
Yeah. And also I worry about, sometimes I get this question a lot where people say, Oh, should I bring my apple tree in over the winter? that's going to be a temptation.
How, would an apple tree respond by being like a pet tree, like, almost like a, fig tree that you take in the winter? Would it survive, do you think?
well, you could go ahead, Jill.
No, I was just going to say, I think it's, people do that with other plants, like hydrangeas that they know are not going to maybe survive where they live, but you have to let it get the cold first. So you would have to let it get the chill first before you brought it in, is my guess.
Thanks.
to get enough hours of cold that it could possibly survive in the house, but it would not produce.
Yeah, it would definitely survive in the house. It would survive in a greenhouse, but you're not going to get the pollination in a greenhouse. So, or in the house, but I don't know, that's fascinating.
Maybe we could do a little study at Cornell and see how many hours in the fall and how many hours in the spring would you have to have it outside to get it to actually produce. Survive and get the chill hours and then be pollinated.
I think it's interesting. Laura, you were going to say something.
I was going to say we do have trees that we grow in the year in the greenhouse year round and in the fall because the sun sets a little differently.
You don't get as much light hours like they know they're not supposed to be growing. So even though they're still in. Growing conditions. They stopped growing in the winter, essentially, and then the other ones in the greenhouse. I put them out side from September through the end of this month, and then they'll go into a dark nursery cellar for winter to chill and.
Stay dormant and then we'll take them out in the spring to, and then they'll start growing again.
Well, maybe you guys will be in touch about that because wouldn't that be an interesting, there are so many people who live on, in an apartments or condos with a beautiful patio. And wouldn't that be nice for them to be able to, grow apples.
Yeah, and it's basically what the bare root tree growers are doing. So they harvest them this time of year or maybe next month in the beginning. And then they put them in cold storage for the winter.
Yeah, interesting. So the trick is to get that happening, but also fruit production because these bare root trees are very young.
Yeah. So, yeah, is there anything else, Angela, that you think that listeners might be interested in with regards to columnar apple trees that I haven't asked you?
I think I heard Kenong say that it takes three years with the fruit snacks trees. I've seen plenty of apples on a two year top. So that may be And this, maybe he can answer this.
We look at it as bottoms and tops. So you're grafting the top onto the bottom, right? So the bottom is in the ground for one year, then you graft it, and then you grow the top on top. So the two year top produces. 20 to 30 apples, and I think that's something that is wonderful. Interesting.
Kenong, are you still with us?
yes. the, my experience is mostly related, related to the Wicjek apple. So, I think Angela probably talked about different apple cultivars. Certainly the rootstock we use is also different. So we use, B118. She used B. 1. 1. 9 if I don't hear wrong. So that could be the reason.
That makes sense. It depends on the rootstock that you have.
Future of Columnar Apple Trees - In Outer Space???
Well, actually, having this conversation makes me very excited about new developments and new possibilities with this type of apple. when you. Like me, I grow my fruit trees in a public park. There is a lot of space relative to gardens, a backyard garden. But I just love the idea that an apple tree that anybody theoretically could grow one, hopefully one day.
small garden, as long as you still have full sun and the right climate. so yeah, Kenong or Laura, do you want to say anything that you think I should have asked you that our listeners might be interested in?
I can share you with one thing, with one fact, the potential fact, okay? that is, columnar apple trees could be potentially be used by, Astronaut in the International Space Station.
Oh my gosh, you're kidding. Astronauts?
Yeah, yes. So recently Oh my gosh. Yes, that's definitely a possibility out there.
my husband will be very excited. He talks a lot about, Oh, when we all go to the, the Mars or the moon, and I'm like, No, I like it here. I'm not going. What were you going to say,
Angela?
I think our, the breeders in Oregon actually sent me an article, isn't it? Is it Cornell that's doing that research? Is it? I saw something about that recently.
So Kinong, are you guys doing research for, space travel and fruit trees?
Not yet, but there's some activity happening here.
Oh my gosh, guys, this is so exciting.
Conclusion and Farewell
Okay, well, we have come to the end of the show. Angela, how can people find out more about you, what you do? Is there a website you can share?
Yes, you can go to plantsnuvo. com and there's actually under the collections tab, there's a collection called fruit snacks and you can find all the apples there.
Okay, great. And Laura and Kinong, how can people find you if they have any questions?
Just type my name or Laura's name, Google it, and you'll find us.
And then they can email you directly. That sounds great. Thank you so much, everybody, for coming on the show today. I really appreciate it. Hopefully we will talk again soon.
So goodbye for now. And yeah, and for the listeners, thank you so much for tuning in. If you want to see a video version of the show, I'm going to be editing it with lots of great images of all of these trees that we're talking about. So to find the video and other videos of our podcast, go to the Orchard People YouTube channel.
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